Quote from: nutildah on February 10, 2019, 06:17:44 AM

Quote from: franky1 on February 10, 2019, 05:59:56 AM

LN is not a bitcoin thing.
LN is a separate network for multiple coins. the onyl reason the words bitcoin and LN are currently inter-twined is purely for promotion and sponsorship stuff..

LN is just a thunderdome to let many coins IOU's(12 decimal payments) enter. and then have some coins soo expensive and so unable to manage millions of transactions a day, that people wont want to exit back out to those coins.
thunderdome 2 may enter one may leave..

its the old banking addage of gold is too heavy and costly to be a currency, so lock ur gold up with a counterparty and have them give you a promissory note(19th century banking promotion).. and if you want to convert the promissory note to coins, you may find taking silver or copper a better exit method.

LN does not scale bitcoin. it actually takes bitcoiners off the bitcoin network "to reduce the burden" (=reduce bitcoin utility)

I realize arguing with you is pointless because you've never been wrong. But the difference between the 19th century and now is there were no smart contracts back then. You're purposefully talking around the point that the BTC is locked up by _nobody_ but programming language, and _nobody_ has to participate in the LN if they choose not to. I don't understand how you can continue to be so mad at a technology. If LN encourages mass participation of bitcoin, why be angry at it? Its nonsensical.

firstly no one HAS TO deposit gold into a bank vault... but if bank notes promote and encourage mass participation of gold why be angry at bank notes. its nonsensical........ is pretty much what your saying right?

a smart contract is just a buzzword for a vault that you yourself do not solely control.
in essense. IF you DID lock up bitcoin into a vault with only yourself. you are not creating a channel. you are just timing yourself and only yourself out of being able to do anything with your funds on the bitcoin network
LN users wont accept such a single control lock. as they have no control to prevent you from just running off and never paying them whats owed later.

multisig is about multiple parties being involved. channels are multisig (multi/counterparty)
maybe instead of thinking what i say is about 'is franky right or wrong' but a point at which you should really look beyond the glossy hype of the promotion material and actually look at LN properly..
even LN devs will admit the flaws and issues with LN

but hey. if you think LN and bitcoin are the same thing.. just ask yourself the 'day one' question of "what is bitcoin" and then compare that answer to "what is LN"

heres an example
1. how many decimals does a bitcoin payment have []8 []12
2. can you pay bitcoiners when the recipient is offline []yes []no
3. are bitcoin payments validated and confirmed by the community []yes []no
4. do you need to pre-plan spending habits and lock funds []yes []no
5. do you then need to search for routes that are online and funded to pass your payment []yes []no

give your answer for bitcoin.. then ask yourself again for LN
then finally ask
was LN designed to be bitcoin compatible and a feature of bitcoin.. OR.. was bitcoin altered to include a new tx format to be a gateway to LN
.. then you will learn the difference

with all that said. LN not visioned as a "bitcoin solution" (because its not).. but envisioned as a commercial side service network. has a niche. but even to fulfill that niche the bitcoin network still needs to scale.
for instance knowing that bitcoin can only handle 600k lean legacy transactions daily. or ~400k LN gateway transactions.
knowing people to have a reliable LN experience will need 4-6 channels(gateway transactions)
thats only letting in 80k-100k users a day open LN channels.
which with people needing at some point to close them channels. and also people only funding and pre-planning spending habit for a couple weeks(average utility).
means every fortnight 80k-100k are using 2 days of bitcoin blockchain data(open and close). thus mathematically 2 days per fortnight = 700k users per fortnight spending habits.
oh i must stipulate these numbers are only if the bitcoin blockchain was utilised only for LN gateway transactions. because if normal bitcoiners were also doing normal bitcoin transactions inblocks. then thats less LN gateway transactions = less LN users

so, yea dont snap at me for going beyond the promotional material. instead try to yourself look beyond the over promise/over hype sponsorship stuff and look at LN fully an indepth.