Quote from: gibson042 on September 02, 2011, 05:26:28 PM

Quote from: Hawker on September 02, 2011, 05:10:56 PM

With respect, you are avoiding answering the question. I didn't ask about your possessions. I asked about the nature of ownership. Where do you believe that property rights come from somewhere other than society? If property rights don't come from society, then who owns the farms in Eastern Turkey, Israel and Northern Cyprus that were taken by force when once society destroyed another?

The factual nature of ownership is that owners are those who successfully defend a claim. An philosophical definition of ownership requires that it only be granted with homesteading or voluntary transfer, and only revoked with abandonment or voluntary transfer. The two perspectives disagree.

But, to quote you to yourself:

Quote from: Hawker on September 02, 2011, 04:28:21 PM

You haven't answered. Who is the legitimate owner -Turks and Israelis or the descendents of the dispossessed Armenians, Arabs and Greeks?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Property_rights#Thomas_Hobbes_.2817th_century.29

"Hobbes' reflection began with the idea of "giving to every man his own," a phrase he drew from the writings of Cicero. But he wondered: How can anybody call anything his own? He concluded: My own can only truly be mine if there is one unambiguously strongest power in the realm, and that power treats it as mine, protecting its status as such."

I suppose its a very English way of looking at things I'll grant you as all property in England came from the conquest in 1066. I'm Irish and all our property rights came from the conquest in 1641.

Anyway, you may have a different philosopher ? There are many and I'm not sure how you'd select one over another if you are not going to look at the "factual nature" of things. What is the point of a philosophy that is not based on facts?