Quote from: the joint on September 03, 2011, 11:05:59 PM

It absolutely does matter if it's a currency, since as you state...

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tangible and intangible personal property, ...

Quote from: the joint on September 03, 2011, 11:05:59 PM

There is absolutely no way to establish that BTC has any value whatsoever, though.

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Quote from: sliderider on September 02, 2011, 06:42:11 PM

The value is whatever the high bid price is on the exchanges. It most certainly has a value.

Quote from: sliderider on September 02, 2011, 06:44:54 PM

Of course they have value or nobody would waste all the time and electricity required to mine for them. Would you spend the money on the hardware to build a massive bitcoin mining operation if they had no value?

Quote from: sliderider on September 02, 2011, 06:47:32 PM

Wrong. bitcoins have value whether it benefits me to say they do or not. If they had no value nobody would buy them or mine them. The fact they have value, as shown on the bid sheets at the exchanges makes them treasure trove and up for grabs. Look at the bid sheets the same as you look at gold and silver charts. If gold is treasure, then so are bitcoins.

Quote from: copumpkin on September 02, 2011, 10:14:00 PM

If it didn't have value before you sold it, nobody would have bought it from you. You might also want to read things like http://www.austinchronicle.com/columns/2005-12-02/315676/. Whether it's an intangible good or not is also irrelevant. You did not _take_ someone's property, but you did not make a reasonable effort to return it to them, and instead posted on facebook (of which there is documentation) about "free money" and started preaching about how the victim was in the wrong. Definitely not good faith, and it'll look bad when the law gets involved.

I could accidentally send you my collection of used women's panties (hypothetically Grin

) and if you kept it, you'd be liable. No, used panties are not legal tender. No, they have no market value. But you still took my stuff, and made no effort to return it to me. Sure, you wouldn't be liable for much, but you would definitely be in the wrong.

Over $4000? You should be worried.

Quote from: kjj on September 02, 2011, 10:33:05 PM

Nonsense from start to finish. The exchange of data is a token to memorialize the transfer of the ownership interest in the intangible property. That ownership interest has a very real value, and the markets are very, very liquid, so the value is quite certain. Do you think your house has no value because it isn't at this moment undergoing a sale?

Quote from: casascius on September 02, 2011, 10:40:45 PM

That is not true. They have an easily established value. All of this talk about "a judge won't recognize these as having value" is complete nonsense. Absolutely certain of it.

Not only that, but with the way you are brazenly shirking this, the person who may very likely be liable for the lawyer fees in the end is the clown who took the 511 BTC he wasn't entitled to and who claims he "OWNS" them.

Patrick, FYI, I have saved this entire thread to a PDF file, just in case mr. DAOG realizes that deleting his own posts is a wise idea. I am in the US and am able to produce an affidavit in support of your complaint against this guy, assuming you can identify him, in support of the fact that bitcoins have value and such questions that would be asked by the authorities in Oregon.

Quote from: johnj on September 02, 2011, 10:41:50 PM

Pretty sure it'd be hard to back up, seeing as how it's already documented that you've mined for them, proving that you already think they're of some value (time invested, power spent, etc). And if you have a record that can be traced back to an Exchange (as in, you've already traded them for currency)... hard to claim you think they're 'worthless' and have 'no value'.

Quote from: Vladimir on September 02, 2011, 10:45:26 PM

The thing is. The judge will ask not you. The judge will ask an expert witness, probably invited by claimant. The expert will pull out mobile phone check current mtgox rate and say "As of this moment this day and this month of year 2012, based on current exchange rate on leading exchange, which is 356.33 $ per 1 BTC, fair market value of 512 BTC can be estimated as USD182440.96".

Quote from: DLowDAOG on September 02, 2011, 10:49:43 PM

Quote from: defxor on September 02, 2011, 10:47:08 PM

Quote from: DLowDAOG on September 02, 2011, 10:45:30 PM

Gold has tremendous value

Please tell me the current value of 1 oz of gold, and what you did to get to that value.

I see where you are going with this. Good point.

Quote from: sliderider on September 02, 2011, 10:51:58 PM

egold doesn't have any value until you exchange it either but that didn't stop the Justice Dept and the Treasury from going after them.

Quote from: rannici on September 03, 2011, 01:22:13 PM

i have a business selling specialty socks that i, and my family knit ourselves.
i built a website for selling these socks to people who recognize the inherent comfort and value of such socks.

one day, i accidentally mail 500 socks to a registered buyer on the website.
the socks, unlike gold, are not a 'precious metal', and are not considered a 'currency' by any nation on the planet.
yet they do have a value to my family and i, as it took thread to make, and an investment of our time.
.. therefore, i go ahead and verify that the buyer did indeed receive the amount of socks in question,
and cordially request that the buyer help resolve this mistake amicably.
to which, they become hostile, citing 'finders-keepers'.

i'm not a legal expert,
but i've seen stupider cases on judge judy.
i believe i can sue, since, the original buyer acknowledged the mistake, and kept the product regardless.
to think otherwise is stupidly naive.

...
...

also, the argument that bitcoins are worth nothing is by its nature, flawed,
as, like knitting socks,
there are electrical costs, and an investment of time, required to mine a single bitcoin.
it is this inherent value, that you would be potentially suing for.
..
you would essentially be saying 'pay me the amount in electricity that it would cost to mine another 512 bitcoins, and compensate me for my time', or give back the coins.