Quote from: indio007 on September 04, 2011, 12:05:57 AM

Quote from: the joint on September 03, 2011, 11:05:59 PM

There is absolutely no way to establish that BTC has any value whatsoever, though.

This is absolutely wrong. At the very least Bitcoin provides a network access.

People that adamantly believe Bitcoin have no value need to look up the law on what a valuable consideration is before opening their trap.

I know some of you people went to the GW Bush School of Logic but repeating a lie enough times doesn't make it true.

I'm going to put this to bed FOREVER.

Quote

The word "value," in its commonly received signification, means the sum of money a thing will produce to the seller when it is sold. We are aware that this is not abstractly the true measure of value. The quantity of labor and capital necessary to produce a given article, or, in other words, the actual cost of its production. Is the true criterion of , Its worth. For instance, if a manufacturer | be asked the vafue of a yard of cloth, his opinion of the value will be determined by his calculation of the expense of producing a yard of cloth of similar quality. If we ask a retail dealer the value of a yard of cloth, his opinion of its value will be determined by the quantity of money such an article will produce in the market It is apparent that the marketable value may be affected by a multitude of circumstances which; will not in their results extend to the cost of production. Value Is in its nature so vague 'and indefinite that no human scrutiny can | seize all its constituent parts, and therefore opinions of value are admissible in evidence from the necessity of the case. Town of Rochester v. Town of Chester, 3 N. H. 349, j 358.
The word "value," It Is to be observed, has two different meanings, and sometimes expresses the utility of some particular object, and sometimes the power of purchasing other goods which the possession of that object conveys. The one may be called "value in use"; the other "value in exchange." State v. Yates, 10 Ohio Dec. 150, 158, 19 Wkly. Law Bui. 150 (citing Smith, Wealth of Nations).
The value of property consists in its use, and he who owns the use forever, though it be on condition subsequent, la the true owner of the property for the time being. Wells v. City of Savannah, 21 Sup. Ct. 697, 702, 181 U. S. 531, 45 L. Ed. 986.

The primary meaning of "value" Is worth; and this worth is made up of the useful or estimable qualities of the thing. Ordinarily, when an article of sale is in the market, and has a market value, there is no difference between Its value and the
market price, and the law adopts the latter as the proper evidence of value. This Is not however, because "value" and "price" are really convertible terms, but only because they are ordinarily so In a fair market Kountz v. Kirkpatrick, 72 Pa. (22 P. F. Smith) 376. 386, 13 Am. Rep. 687.

As market value.
Bouvier, In his definition of value, says: "This term has two different meanings. It sometimes expresses the utility of an object, and sometimes the power of purchasing other articles with it The first may be called the 'value In use' and the latter the 'value in exchange.' Webster recognizes a difference between extrinsic and exchangeable value." But In condemnation proceedings "value" will be held to mean market value. Little Kock Junction Ky. v. Woodruff, 5 S. W. 792, 795, 49 Ark. 381, 4 Am. St. Rep. 51.

When applied to property, and no qualification is expressed or Implied, "value" moans the price which the property could command In the market. In re McGhee's Estate. 74 N. W. 695, 697. 105 Iowa. 9.

Value consists In the estimate or opinion of those influencing the market attachable to certain intrinsic qualities belonging to the article to be valued. Washington Ice Co. v. Webster, 68 Me. 449, 463.

Price synonymous
All the lexicographers, both law and general. In certain instances, give the words "value" and "price" as convertible and synonymous. As used in Code, c. 145, g 14, requiring an indictment for larceny to state the value of a thing stolen, if not synonymous with, it is at least equivalent to, the word "price," as used in an indictment charging the larceny of property of a certain price. State v. Sparks, 3 S. E. 40, 41, SO W. Va. 101.
Ordinarily, when an article of sale is in
the market and has a market value, there is no difference between its value and the market price, and the law adopts the latter as the proper evidence of the value. "Value" and "price" are, therefore, not synonymous, or the necessary equivalents of each other, though commonly "market value" and "market price" are legal equivalents. Theiss v. Weiss, 31 Atl. 63, 66, 166 Pa. 9, 45 Am. St Rep. 638 (citing Kountz v. Kirkpatrlck, 72 Pa. [22 P. F. Smith] 376, 13 Am. Rep. 687).
The primary meaning of "value" is ■worth. "Price" is not synonymous with "value," but frequently "market value" and "market price" are used synonymously. Chicago, K. & W. R. Co. v. Parsons, 32 Pac. 1083, 1084, 51 Kan. 40a
"'Value' is a word more comprehensive than 'price.' By the price of a thing, therefore, we shall henceforth understand Its val
ue in money; by the value or exchange value of a thing its general power of purchase; the command its position gives over purchasable commodities in general." Marriner v. John L. Roper Co., 16 S. E. 906, 907, 112 N. C. 164.

The terms "value of the use" of the premises, and "rental value," mean substantially the same thing. Alexander v. Bishop, 13 N. W. 744, 747, 59 Iowa, 572.

Bitcoin provides network access. Bitcoins do not. There is nothing intrinsically valuable about a Bitcoin. Your references to market value are invalid because the market is not legally recognized as such. "Value in use" and "value in exchange" are consequently irrelevant. If what you are saying is true legally, then copyright laws wouldn't need to exist as everything would be a form of copyright since anyone could claim that there is value (and thus ownership) associated with anything you generate or type on your computer.

Property is determined by its value, and this value must be proven according to existing law. What you seem to be getting at is that there is an electrical cost associated with the generation of a Bitcoin, and just as the clothmaker would say that there is a manufacturing/time cost associated with the production of the cloth, there is a manufacturing/time cost associated with the production of a Bitcoin. But there is also a manufacturing/time cost associated with anything I type on the internet, on any post, in any text document, etc., yet this information can legally be 'stolen' and exchanged freely without any legal consequence so long as there is no copyright protection. So, the definitions you gave are invalid with regard to certain lawful applications, thus rendering their use in this argument invalid.