Quote from: _Miracle on March 22, 2019, 04:12:06 AM

Quote from: coins4commies on March 19, 2019, 08:29:38 AM

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism

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the communist society, which is a socioeconomic order structured upon the common ownership of the means of production and the absence of social classes, money,[3][4] and the state.[5][6]

So although I recognize that those living in capitalist societies define communism as totalitarian state, I am trying to establish the actual definition of a communist society in any discussion. You not thinking I'm altogether there as a result of that is just a reflection of your ignorance, not mine.

coins4commies--- you are linking to a definition that is fairly accurate, while still not understanding that those ideals are based on a wish for the way society could work together but has---in actuality failed.
The results you wish to have are laudable and (I almost want to say: "don't worry your pretty little head" ;-)) we're already firmly headed towards socialism.

It's a lot to ask regular people to read books on economics or Wealth of Nations or -->The Road to Serfdom but if you want to be able to properly defend your position you might want to read something that opposes your view.

Hayek speaking on The Road to Serfdom
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3r4vFnPCCjU

More simply stated by Milton Friedman
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=15idnfuyqXs

@about 8mins in
a subtle analysis of why well-meaning people who only wish to improve the lot of their fellows tend to favor courses of action which have exactly the opposite effect

You shouldn't assume someone who holds an opposing view is just unread. A leftist living in the USA cannot help but read things that oppose their view. Most of what I have ever read and experienced was written from a capitalist point of view and operates with the same ill-defined use of socialism as a centrally planned economy with a strong state running things.

The road to serfdom is nothing more. Its simply a criticism of state socialism, central planning, and the soviet style system with a lot of narrative of how those systems are connected to fascism. None of that has anything to do with my view or anyone in this thread. I am on the opposite end of the spectrum (libertarian left). Medicare for all and not government takeover healthcare nor is it central planning. These candidates you call socialists are really just center-left liberals. These policies are just a form of welfare, regulation, or "stimulus". Posting those links makes me think you have ignored the proposals by these candidates entirely and just listened to conservative news calling them socialists. No one wants central planning.

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Quote from: nutildah on March 22, 2019, 07:26:58 AM

Quote from: theymos on March 22, 2019, 03:32:39 AM

Even if Sanders wins, the US is not going to become socialist overnight (thank goodness...). The Senate, Supreme Court, and (periodically) the House will block basically every little thing he does. If he plays his cards right, he might be able to push through one or two major things, but it won't be exactly what he wants, and it's not going to completely reshape US politics.

The presidency is more of a figurehead than administrative position IMO. There's no way for 1 person to effectively govern 300,000,000. The ability of one president to have a broadly transformative effect on the entire country just isn't something that happens. There's too many machinations at work to allow a single person to upset the power structure... I think Obama was a good example of this. Much like with Trump, people thought Obama becoming president was going to destroy the country. Instead, he largely produced more of the same.

Sanders being elected would definitely represent a shift in attitude that is reactive of Trump, but I agree that ultimately he'll have to put any grand ideals on hold and compromise down to the status quo, just like every other president of the last 30 years.

Executive branch has a lot of direct power, can end the wars, and enforce tighter regulation. Don't underestimate the direct power. Also, the president has the largest influence and can talk directly to the American people to get a message out to the people who then put pressure on congress to pass it.

The house is changing. Maybe not in 2020 but by 2022 and 2024, you will continue to see more and more leftists enter congress. I admit the senate is far from changing but will simply lag. The math is changing quickly as old conservatives continue to die earlier and more young people can vote in each election. The more realistic plan is to have a president sanders lay the groundwork for 2028 when congress will definitely be ready and AOC or someone like her can really achieve a leftist agenda as president.