Quote from: franky1 on March 28, 2019, 10:43:07 AM

Quote from: Wind_FURY on March 28, 2019, 07:05:22 AM

Quote from: Wind_FURY on March 27, 2019, 05:12:14 AM

Quote from: franky1 on March 26, 2019, 04:32:14 PM

fractional reserve on LN. it has begun

https://www.bitrefill.com/buy/lightning-channel/

500,000 sats capacity You pay 0.000403 BTC
2,000,000 sats capacity You pay 0.001341 BTC
4,000,000 sats capacity You pay 0.002011 BTC
8,000,000 sats capacity You pay 0.003753 BTC
16,000,000 sats capacity You pay 0.004825 BTC

Can you explain how that would be possible? Are you telling everyone who reads your post that Bitrefill is issuing "Lightning pegged IOU tokens"?

franky1, can you tell is what your answer to that is? I'm very curious what your deep research on the Lightning Network will bring us. Thanks.

what i have been continually telling you is this:
1. LN is NOT the bitcoin network. LN is its own separate network

Correct, Lightning is not the on-chain Bitcoin network, it's a network for off-chain transactions.

[/quote]

Quote

2. just like all altcoins just because a transaction (for settlement) look like a particular format does NOT make them a bitcoin transaction

What do you mean by "transaction for settlement", when the final state of the channel is broadcasted on-chain, it does not make them a Bitcoin transaction?

Quote

3. a bitcoin transaction of confirmed settle funds is only a bitcoin transaction of confirmed settled ffunds when its on the bitcoin blockchain

Yes like how the final state of a Lightning channel is broadcasted on-chain like any other Bitcoin on-chain transaction.

Quote

4. anything NOT on the bitcoin blockchain is not a bitcoin transaction

It's not a Bitcoin on-chain transaction, correct, but a Lightning off-chain transaction using Bitcoins bouncing between channels, and with transaction records stored locally.

Quote

once you learn the above you understand how people writing fake cheques and counterfeit bank notes still OWE people funds once its realised that the funds are not real/wont settle/confirm

Nothing is owed. All Bitcoins in Lightning are accounted for when a user opens a channel.

Quote

5. payments/invoices htlcs are NOT bitcoins. they are not even 8 decimals

But it still doesn't satisfy your debate that they are IOUs, there are no IOUs. Bitcoins in payment channels are Bitcoins confirmed when the channels were opened.

Quote

6. the 12 decimal payments WILL NEVER EVER EVER settle on a bitcoin blockchain.. EVER

What settles is the final state of the channel, not whether the off-chain transactions made in Lightning were made with 12 decimals.

Quote

7. the channel is just an agreement/promise between 2 parties. a contract. yes a promise/agreement/contract are all the same thing

Not a mere agreement, or promise. Those Bitcoins were confirmed on-chain when participants opened the channel.

Quote

even a marriage contract is a promise. a commitment is a promise. but there is no 100% guarantee its final. its an ongoing thing that can change. "i PROMISE to love honour and obey in sickness and in health"
LN is not a immutable settled fund. its a promise. AKA an IOU
LN is not 8 decimil measured. its 12 decimal. so its not even the same unit of account. thus is pegged
EG
imagine you bought $10 of game funds. the game funds are 10000millidollars.. they are not $10. they are pegged balance to represent $10 but they are not actually $10.
same thing with 'stablecoins' they are not real fiat, but pegged tokens to represent real bank balance.

only the bitcoin blockchain is the final immutable state
if its not on the blockchain its not a guarantee, its just a promise, hope/maybe

Marriage contract? Haha.

Plus there are no IOUs in Lightning, do your research.

Quote

8. there is no community support to audit the LN payment values tally against bitcoin network locked funds. it is just the channel partners that agree they are happy with how the channel is set up (what happens in channel stays inchannel)

Not the blockchain? When it's supposed to wait for 6 confirmations to open a Lightning channel?

Quote

9. if i paid you ~$4k in fiat. i would not care how you done it but i would want/expect/agree to a LN channel with ~1btc in LN balance..
10. if i paid you $400 i would be more than happy and agree to getting 1btc in LN balance

Off-topic. But if you didn't know, there are transaction limits in Lightning.

Quote

11. after the playing around with LN balance has been done. the balance is NOT sent to the bitcoin network. instead it goes back to you (or in the case of bitrefill, them) and they aggregate and decide what to do next.

I don't know what you mean, but everything is settled on-chain once you broadcast the final state of the channel.

Quote

12. once you update your research on watchtowers and factories you will learn that bitrefill is acting like a factory. they create the value and the channel party just agrees with it. thats how LN works(emphasis point 8 )

Ok, explain it like I'm stupid. Without the propaganda, what are watchtowers and channel factories? How do they work technically?