Quote from: franky1 on March 29, 2019, 08:14:12 AM

Quote from: Wind_FURY on March 29, 2019, 05:34:26 AM

What do you mean by "transaction for settlement", when the final state of the channel is broadcasted on-chain, it does not make them a Bitcoin transaction?

no
until its CONFIRMED its meaningless
its the whole point of blockchains..
anyone can write a tx and sign it. but unless its confirmed on a blockchain. you have not been paid

But it was already confirmed on-chain when the Bitcoins were sent to a 2-for-2 multisig address to open a channel. Are those on-chain confirmations meaningless?

There are no IOUs in Lightning.

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what you have been taught by others seems to be that blockchains are boring/broke/meaningless because countersigned accounts(channels) are as secure.(facepalm) seems your being told to not care about blockchains revolutionary decentralised concepts and being told that the old fiat banking system of dual authorised payments are the real technology

Facepalm. No, that's false. I never said anything like that. I said there are no "IOU pegged promise to pay tokens" in Lightning. But I do hope the newbies will listen to you, like how I listened to you and Joland Fyookball when I was a newbie. Cool

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Quote from: Wind_FURY on March 29, 2019, 05:34:26 AM

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3. a bitcoin transaction of confirmed settle funds is only a bitcoin transaction of confirmed settled ffunds when its on the bitcoin blockchain

Yes like how the final state of a Lightning channel is broadcasted on-chain like any other Bitcoin on-chain transaction.

broadcasting is meaningless. tx's can drop out of mempool. have insufficient fee. have people slip in CPFP or RBF to get a similar tx in before your "broadcast" gets a chance

Then on-chain transactions are meaningless? I'm confused.

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Quote from: Wind_FURY on March 29, 2019, 05:34:26 AM

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4. anything NOT on the bitcoin blockchain is not a bitcoin transaction

It's not a Bitcoin on-chain transaction, correct, but a Lightning off-chain transaction using Bitcoins bouncing between channels, and with transaction records stored locally.

funds in channel are not bitcoins. learn millisats.
please please please stop spending months pretending you have the answers. and do one thing.. JUST GO USE LN an research it. this is getting repetitive.
until you use and research something. dont even dare pretend to know about it. just the fact that you cant even understand millisats is making you trip over yourself at the first step of understanding

No it's you who dares to pretend to have done all the research about it. You are merely spreading misinformation. But I hope the newbies listen to you. That's the only way to learn the truth.

All newbies, listen to franky1, and assume everything he's telling you is true. Cool

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Quote from: Wind_FURY on March 29, 2019, 05:34:26 AM

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once you learn the above you understand how people writing fake cheques and counterfeit bank notes still OWE people funds once its realised that the funds are not real/wont settle/confirm

Nothing is owed. All Bitcoins in Lightning are accounted for when a user opens a channel.

no they are not
LN is not a community audit of funds. the channel is not open only when a community have accounted the channels and all agreed. instead its just a 2 party agreement on whatever greed decision they want.
its just a handshake between 2 people.
so if you gave me $100 and i said ill open a channel with you and give you 1000000000000ms (pegged 1btc).. you would be orgasming at the great deal of getting to play with what you beleive is 1btc for only $100 cost so you would accept the channel

But what about the confirmed on-chain transaction to open the channel?

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Quote from: Wind_FURY on March 29, 2019, 05:34:26 AM

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5. payments/invoices htlcs are NOT bitcoins. they are not even 8 decimals
6. the 12 decimal payments WILL NEVER EVER EVER settle on a bitcoin blockchain.. EVER

But it still doesn't satisfy your debate that they are IOUs, there are no IOUs. Bitcoins in payment channels are Bitcoins confirmed when the channels were opened.
What settles is the final state of the channel, not whether the off-chain transactions made in Lightning were made with 12 decimals.

oopsy.. u just admitted to yourself the whole thing ur trying to deny
the difference between the off chain transactions made in lightning, vs what the bitcoin blockchain see's

dang you dug yourself such a big hole pretending to just be naive. but they tripped up and fell in, burying yourself by admitting you actually know theres a difference between the in channel and bitcoin network transaction formats/units of measure
you just pretty much admitted to yourself that you know there are 2 formats/differences.
thank you for your self defeat. now may you take a break and spend time learning

What? Haha. Nice try. "Millisats" are possible in Lightning, but when the channel closes, the final state of the channel will always be broadcasted on-chain in 8 decimals. Remember, all transactions in Lightning are stored locally.

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..
as for the watchtower/factory stuff
there is no bigworld wide community that sanction off/ drop from relay/ delete channels if the 12 decimal tokens dont tally against a blockchain when opening a channel.
the only parties that handshake to a channel opening are the 2 people in the channel.
again if you paid bitrefil a small amount and they will give you a channel containing a big amount. you can personally refuse it. but then your greed will more than likely accept it.
after all in your mind your not at risk. you got nothing to lose and everything to gain.
again there is no community audit protecting you/preventing you from opening channels. its a private aggrement between 2 people

things like factories are like bitrefil where they give you lots of balance that does not tally against a blockchain. but knowing the channel tx wont ever broadcast. after the 30 days. they just reopen a channel to refresh the balance, without touching the blockchain
obviously if you demand bitrefil to as the watchtower/factory to broadcast a real bitcoin transaction. there would be a penalty/price they would charge

(its much like exchanges play around with THEIR orderbooks as much as you like but when you want to withdraw, you then have to hop they have the coldstore and they dont charge you huge withdrawal fee's or even hop they dont just scam you with the "we been hacked" stuff)

I will try to get someone from Bitrefill to comment. Maybe you know him, and have met him in conferences.

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..
but now before you continue.. can you please try to use LN to get a grasp of it. otherwise if you kep refusing to use it but then keep on pretending you know whats happening. im just going to treat you as no longer naive. but just a person thats more interested in causing social drama

If you grasp all of it, then why you do you keep spreading misinformation?

Quote from: Khaos77 on March 30, 2019, 06:09:15 AM

Fractional Reserve has always been the point of LN,

Newbies, listen to him, and assume he's telling you the truth. Learning the hard way is the only way to learn.