Quote from: deisik on April 10, 2019, 09:37:17 AM

Quote from: JayJuanGee on April 10, 2019, 08:22:01 AM

Quote from: deisik on April 10, 2019, 06:49:29 AM

It looks like there are no others

I mean significant and important others. It is the major world powers like the ones already mentioned that directly determine the world policies, either directly or indirectly via institutions like the IMF (in the latter case regarding financial matters). Also, I wouldn't overestimate that "mandate" that people gave to these governments.

Again, I am trying to avoid prescription, here. In other words, I am trying to talk descriptive rather than prescriptive, and in that regard, I believe that bitcoin brings a dynamics that will contribute towards various kinds of accountability and momentum that is truly bottom up

That sounds pretty ambiguous

Why does it matter if whatever I am suggesting about dynamics is ambiguous? What I am suggesting is try to assess current circumstances, and wait and see how the situation evolves and affects a variety of institutions, and currently bitcoin is giving more power to the bottom rather than to the top.

In essence, I am not really trying to predict anything, but just to describe what seems to be currently taking place and to suggest that based on current bitcoin dynamics, there is likely going to continue to be a gravitation of value into bitcoin which has a lot of other effects that are likely going to be societal wide. No one is going to really know the details of how the future is going to evolve, but each person may well be able to contemplate various changing dynamics that are partly caused by changed tools and the power of such tools.. referring to bitcoin here. Once you make various assessments, you assign probabilities to future events and attempt to live your life based on situations that seem more probable to come true.. and you are NOT locked into your initial assessment, because you tweak along the way and hope that you were kind of in the ballpark in your earlier assessments rather than in complete fantasy land.. The closer you are the more likely you will prosper, unless you just get lucky,. but I prefer to live a life of good odds and not too much drama rather than making bets on things that are not likely to happen. To each their own. We are not all the same in our views, willingness to take risk, financial means, talents and timeline considerations.

Quote from: deisik on April 10, 2019, 09:37:17 AM

Quote from: JayJuanGee on April 10, 2019, 08:22:01 AM

Of course, we are hardly likely to ever get rid of top down dynamics and top down attempts at manipulation and control

Quote from: deisik on April 10, 2019, 06:49:29 AM

Obviously, they consist of people, and it is this small group of people who took control over the governments (let's cut the crap about democracy here).

I am referring to dynamics that apply across all societies, of course, some are more top down than others and some can really deviate from public mandates in the way they behave and treat people

This is an obvious catch-22 problem

The top down is top down specifically because it succeeded at manipulation and mind control at some point in the past. And this will always be so. Well, at least as long as humans remain social beings and thus vulnerable as well as prone to manipulation. And no Bitcoin will be able to change that

Of course, manipulation and attempts at manipulation are going to continue to take place, and those persons who are either of a better mindset or better able to utilize tools available to them are going to fare better under changing dynamics and ongoing various changing ways to attempt to manipulate and be manipulated.

You seem to be going much beyond what I had been saying, and whether as an individual you are able to figure out ways to have some control over your environment depends on a variety of factors including tools that are available to you and your own resourcefulness to figure out ways to prosper in changing dynamics. For example, if you do not have decent assessments about what is going on, then you are more likely to be manipulated in ways that you are not willing to accept.. some manipulation is inevitable.. .it is not like each of us come out of the womb with an ability to do whatever the fuck we want... there is a context in which each of us works, and some peeps are born into situations with more options than others, and some peeps are better able to manuever to either make their situation better or worse, with even some luck coming into play, too.

Quote from: deisik on April 10, 2019, 09:37:17 AM

Quote from: JayJuanGee on April 10, 2019, 08:22:01 AM

Quote from: deisik on April 10, 2019, 06:49:29 AM

And if they keep their financial and monetary policies sane overall (read, they don't hyperinflate fiat), there is little to no threat to them from crypto

I am not talking about "crypto" I am talking about bitcoin. Fuck all the various pump and dump bullshit

I referred to crypto here more as a technology rather than a specific coin (but let it be Bitcoin, I don't mind)

At least, we can avoid another layer of ambiguity, and stick to referring to bitcoin... at least for now.

Quote from: deisik on April 10, 2019, 09:37:17 AM

Quote from: JayJuanGee on April 10, 2019, 08:22:01 AM

Anyhow, assuming that you were referring to bitcoin, and you just substituted the word "crypto," then I am still going to make the point that bitcoin is going to force accountability of governments, and of course, we likely do not disagree that more responsible monetary policies are going to compete better and perhaps even stave off some of what seems to be inevitable in the longer term, which is the gravitation of value into bitcoin. Of course, this could take 100 years to really play out and maybe even 10-30 years to witness powerful changes in the gravitation of value towards bitcoin

Actually, I want to believe in that thing myself

On an individual level, each of us is going to come to varying conclusions about where we believe things are going and how to formulate our own strategies within what we perceive to be the circumstances, including our cashflow, other investments, risk tolerance, view of the asset timeline for investing and skills. Not everyone is going to come to the same conclusions, which can provide opportunities for those who end up being more correct and also appropriately acting on their knowledge.

Quote from: deisik on April 10, 2019, 09:37:17 AM

That Bitcoin, or rather the decentralized technology on which it is based, could force accountability on governments but I seem to be more pessimistic about its prospects in this domain. Really, Bitcoin has been around for 10 years already and so what? It was mostly a speculative asset 5 years ago and things didn't change much since then. Somehow, you wouldn't really expect miracles on making governments more responsible from something which people only use to profiteer. Give these people something else more rewarding or enticing to play with and they will happily abandon Bitcoin in the blink of an eye

Quote from: JayJuanGee on April 10, 2019, 08:22:01 AM

Even if many of us active in these forum threads could be dead or on our final legs before something like BTC world currency status becomes obvious, we are still likely to witness various kinds of little by little of signs moving in that direction... just as we already should notice today that there is little by little advancements in the adoption and the power of bitcoin, even if much less than 1% of the total world population has taken any kind of meaningful stake into bitcoin

I think you are overestimating the potential benefits of Bitcoin and its advantages before fiat

Why does it matter about my estimations? I am providing an opinion, and others are able to figure out their own opinions. Nothing wrong if you believe that I give too much weight to one factor or another or reach the wrong conclusions.

Quote from: deisik on April 10, 2019, 09:37:17 AM

Indeed, fiat can be a pretty dangerous thing if misused and abused.

Fiat is just one of the current dominant dynamics, and who cares if it is good or bad.. it is a tool and part of our current life situation, no?

Based on current assessments and future projected value, I spend my fiat before spending my bitcoin, but I am not opposed to spending some bitcoin too, especially after my portfolio became profitable and I had largely reached my accumulation goals. Furthermore, bitcoin remains volatile compared with bitcoin, and in that regard, no problem shaving off BTC profits along the way... In the real world, I do better if I can shave off value and even take advantage of what seems to be inevitable volatility... one of the things that seem most assured about bitcoin is that it is going to continue to be volatile, at least in the foreseeable coming years. On a personal level, if I recognize something to be so damned certain, then I should be attempting to profit from that, to the extent that I am comfortably able take actions in that direction.

Quote from: deisik on April 10, 2019, 09:37:17 AM

But there is nothing with Bitcoin which can't be done with fiat as well, but the opposite is not true. Economically, Bitcoin (and other cryptocurrencies, for the record) are inferior to fiat.

Doesn't matter. You use whatever tools are available to you and to the extent you believe one tool is more valuable than the other, you spend the less valuable one first and save the more valuable one.. hoping that you are correct in your assessments about present and future value... and if you are not sure about your assessments of value, you hedge a bit to the level of your abilities and comfort.

Quote from: deisik on April 10, 2019, 09:37:17 AM

At max, Bitcoin is an advanced version of gold but without some of its drawbacks but not all of its drawbacks. And these other drawbacks (the largest being its rigid supply which doesn't follow the demands of an economy) are what make Bitcoin ultimately inferior (though it is definitely good as a vehicle for speculation)

Of course, a lot of people invest in gold, and they believe that there is some value in that based on historical circumstances and tangibility. I don't assess much value in that, including my perception of either gold's future value propositions or unlikely Armageddon situations that might cause gold to become more valuable than gold. Again, I don't liv my life based on events that have very low probabilities of happening. If an event has less than 1% chance of happening, in my view, then I should be putting less than 1% of effort into preparing for that direction.

I had considered investing in gold for years, and years, and years, and when bitcoin came into my radar in late 2013, I considered bitcoin as a very good substitute for my having had considered investing in gold. Accordingly, bitcoin is way more portable, divisible, verifiable, and personally empowering in terms of ability to manage. I see no reason to hedge with gold, unless a person were to just appreciate collecting things, and I would like to be more portable and flexible, personally speaking.

Quote from: deisik on April 10, 2019, 09:37:17 AM

Quote from: deisik on April 10, 2019, 06:49:29 AM

Bitcoin is a paradigm shifting asset, and less than 1% of the world seems to have a bit of an understanding of that

From an economic perspective, Bitcoin is totally subpar to fiat done right

Maybe that your belief that bitcoin is "subpar to fiat" causes you to spout out various goofy ideas and thinking on the topic of bitcoin.

Maybe you seem informed about bitcoin, but the fact that you believe it is "less than fiat" shows some kind of gap in your knowledge, especially you have been registered on this forum for several months longer than me.

Seems that, after all of this back and forth, I am realizing from one stupid statement that you might not understand bitcoin in its current state including considerations about its future direction (which is based on probabilities and assessment of both current factors and future projections of scenarios that have varying levels of probability to take). That's too bad that I am spending time attempting to discuss these matters with you, and you seem to not understand basic value proposition(s) of bitcoin. Cry