Quote from: ChuckOne on February 10, 2014, 08:33:14 PM

Quote from: sepehr on February 10, 2014, 06:44:33 PM

Can you please explain what job a forger doing other that unlocking his client and leaving the software open?

Okay, I do it:

The forger:
- has to have a client
- risks all his stake if the client is malicious
- risks his hardware if the client is not secured against malicious attacks
- has to pay the electricity bill
- has to pay for the hardware/renewal of such
- has to pay for a place that hardware can exist in
- has to pay for the bandwidth he contributes to the network
- has to implement security measures (attacks, heat etc.)

I think there is pretty much at stake, literally.

I disagree. Literally. Grin

Point by point:

- has to have a client
   - this costs nothing

- risks all his stake if the client is malicious
   - this can be prevented with some forethought... which costs nothing

- risks his hardware if the client is not secured against malicious attacks
   - risks his hardware? This is quite far-fetched and highly unlikely. It reminds me of the StuxNet virus, which made Iranian uranium-enrichment centrifuges spin until they burned themselves out. But I know of very few "malicious attacks" that can fry my home PC.

- has to pay the electricity bill
   - this is a sunk cost. The forger already has an electricity bill, and as has been stated countless times, the cost of electricity for running a Nxt node is very low.

- has to pay for the hardware/renewal of such
   - this is generally also a sunk cost, since people can forge on existing hardware... except for folks who have bought a Raspberry Pi: they're out $50. Anyone who has spent $5000 on a spiffy Nxt forging rig should be a little embarrassed.

- has to pay for a place that hardware can exist in
   - This is also a sunk cost. You already have a place to exist in, which you generally share with your hardware. And your hardware isn't that big.

- has to pay for the bandwidth he contributes to the network
   - This is also a sunk cost, since you already pay for bandwidth. And you can still forge if you don't advertise your node address, which minimizes bandwidth usage.

- has to implement security measures (attacks, heat etc.)
   - "heat security"? I don't even know what that means. As for other security: most people already have an edge firewall protecting their local network. People who don't use any form of security for their home setup are far more exposed already, for their existing hardware (PCs, etc.). So we're at "sunk cost" again.

Add it all up, and you don't have much to stand on with your attempt to quantify risk/investment.

But consider the alternative. To run a BUSINESS built on top of Nxt (or to improve/contribute to Nxt itself), you need to make a significant investment of money, time, intelligence, and sweat, depending on what kind of business/advancement you want to build. Ask nexern how much he's earning. Or passion_ltc. Or wesleyh. Or salsacz, or pinarello, or rickyjames, jl777, neer.g, pouncer, klee, Damelon, Zahlen, allwelder, bitcoinpaul, or a whole community of people who have done far more than running a free client on a spare computer and hoping to turn a profit. Compensate them first.

There is no "profit" in forging because merely forging adds no value. This is BCnext's point but I'll grant that even I don't accept the point completely unless we assume a "future state" where there are enough services built on top of Nxt to support the ecosystem without the use of forging-only setups.

Bottom line, though: raw forgers have no real expenses. If they do, either they're minimal or they're Doing It Wrong. I know the Internet is a wild place and Bitcoin/Doge/Maxcoin has put dollar signs in lots of peoples' eyes... but you don't earn the right to get compensated for doing nothing. Some people get lucky (just like lottery players do, or people who manage to sell an old phone with Flappy Bird on it on eBay for $60,000), but that's just not the norm. Sorry to disappoint you... but hey, Santa Claus isn't real, either.

Quote from: ChuckOne on February 10, 2014, 08:33:14 PM

As I said, I see forger as an equivalent to bankers with a most important difference (both keep the system running):
- forgers do the least what is necessary to sustain the system - verifying transactions and doing all the hard computational work
- bankers generate the drive to keep the system running by generating money and debts (watch the videos of freigeist) and therefore creating the urge of the society to drive forward, work and repay debts

Verifying transactions is not hard computational work. Curve25519 was chosen because of its computational simplicity.

The "bankers" you refer to here are people who issue coins on TOP of Nxt. Those folks can do fractional reserve and money issuing and interest and contracts and whatever else they want, and they should earn something for their work, if it's useful to the community. You can profit off those people's efforts later. It's just not what the base layer Nxt is for.

Quote from: ChuckOne on February 10, 2014, 08:33:14 PM

Bankers have the unfair advantage of creating and manipulating the ways the system works. Forgers can't and therefore don't. BUT they have to be compensated.

For what? We already know they don't have to invest anything of real value.

The TRUTH is that people WILL find a way to make profit off Nxt one way or another. Regardless of whether or not BCNext's plan is respected, Nxt's value WILL vary against other currencies and people will profit from that (and as an aside: let's be honest, here. BCNext has let the animal out of its cage and HAS no control any more, so whether or not we follow the plan is up to us). In general, though, people who feel entitled to... something... from Nxt have to work a little harder for it.

I said the other day and I'll say it again: Nxt is ultimately a low-level protocol. Like the pipes that run under the streets, it serves as a necessary foundation for everything built above it. What can be built is limitless, but in order for that limitlessness to exist, the foundation has to be simple.