Quote from: ribuck on September 14, 2011, 12:39:07 PM

Quote from: miscreanity on September 14, 2011, 07:27:44 AM

As the saying goes, "you can't eat gold".

Yes you can eat gold.

I'm more of a Goldschlager man, myself. Grin

Quote from: cypherdoc on September 14, 2011, 11:31:20 AM

since when have they been trustworthy? they don't even make good calls anymore.

Deceptive tactics before the feigned retreat. There would be non-stop rising without pause in gold if this were the real loss of control.

Quote from: hugolp on September 14, 2011, 01:02:47 PM

Whats with this obsesion of eating gold a lot of paperbugs have? You can not eat paper neither (well, you can but you get me) and they defend it as money. If you want to eat get food, money is not for eating, money is a mean of exchange. Why would you want to eat money?!?

If you lick it, you get a buzz.

In all seriousness, it demonstrates an admittedly semantic difference between inherent value and a mere property of the substance. For the absolute basic existence of humanity, food is necessary. Without it, we die; we can live our entire lives without gold.

On a different level, gold could be considered to have inherent value for an economy (such as one without the infrastructure to support crypto-currencies). Not necessarily that either perspective is right or wrong, just an issue of which one is appropriate at the current time.

Quote from: cypherdoc on September 14, 2011, 01:21:19 PM

yes, absolutely. in the sense of: "perhaps you ought to consider quoting me as i am the only one i know that had predicted this manipulated central bank induced USD rally weeks ahead of it happening". there is a huge distinction btwn what that lame article you referenced was saying and what i predicted. just saying "i think it might rise now b/c its time" is way diff than saying "why or when" it might rise. the fact that its CB intervention means everything and is precisely why it has ramped so viciously.

...

look. i made this call on 8/9/11. IF i happen to be right on this top but happen to be off by only a month and $100 i'd bet most ppl here on this thread would call me "A Legend" looking back at this years from now as opposed to someone just yelling "fire". not that thats my motivation though.

Of course, Jim Rogers has never made mention of the manipulative games going on.

Some such as yourself are better at calling the short-term gyrations than others. Some are better at long range shifts. That doesn't mean you stand alone. Also, call me crazy but I prefer having a life.

Quote from: cypherdoc on September 14, 2011, 01:21:19 PM

funny you should mention that. this last weekend when i was debating this with hugolp, i came to the realization that my viewpoints are clearly US centric and based on the USD being the worlds reserve currency.

... you would then argue that means gold is still a great buy b/c the ROW demand will surely send gold skyrocketing.

It's been proposed that there will be a hammer-like action in gold. This time it's just on a much larger scale. The long trade for this stage is about half over; it's the short trade that will be the show-stopper. For several months, at least.

Quote from: cypherdoc on September 14, 2011, 01:21:19 PM

however. if you'll recall my inverse pyramid example...

... emerging mkts are going to be hurt even more than us. i could very well see that foreigners will be forced to sell their gold to eat or pay taxes. THIS is what i think the CB's are gunning for and is the clearest example of USD hegemony. a worldwide collapse in the gold markets. obviously i'm betting they'll be successful via brutal liquidity drains and no more QE. they need to save the system that has made them Masters of the Universe.

You mean this pyramid?

Are you speaking of the same emerging markets where manufacturing has moved while those in developed nations rust or are taken over by government? The same ones where agriculture is still a large component of national production as opposed to "developed" countries where 98% of its citizens couldn't grow enough food to feed themselves for a year if they wanted to? These are same growing environments that have built brand-new infrastructure and have positive prospects while the "Masters of the Universe" panic and try to save their own hides.

It sounds like you're suggesting the USD is here now and forever. Haven't you said that nothing lasts forever? There's a turning point coming up in gold, but it isn't the end.

When I brought up the greatest insult of being ignored, the same applies to the US dollar. Once it becomes irrelevant, the lie crumbles into dust. There is only one thing that can realistically make the dollar irrelevant: a large portion of the world shifting to a different currency (Euro, Yuan, gold, Bitcoin, etc.).

If, or rather when that happens, the world goes to war as the US cannot sustain itself in its current form. America will try to hold onto everything it can by force rather than endure the difficult transition of shifting to greater productivity instead of consumption. Should America not become violent, that would shock me - nothing of its past or current behavior suggests that will occur.

Quote from: cypherdoc on September 14, 2011, 01:21:19 PM

Quote from: miscreanity on September 14, 2011, 05:04:56 AM

It isn't the fact that this dollar rally happened that's interesting, but the extent to which it has risen in such a short time.

this came as no surprise to me. not when you predict that the USD rally will come from CB intervention as i have. i have said several times the USD will "skyrocket". this is how markets are manipulated. in the middle of the night interventions when most investors are asleep at the wheel to create maximum psychological impact at the open via a huge GLD gap down; extreme ramps to force margined gold players out of their positions; small descending triangle formations to "tempt" bulls in gold into buying and leveraging up before "the trap" is snapped shut; extreme ramps in the USD to force USD shorts to cover overextended positions; waiting until sentiment reaches extremes before initiating an attack; all the while to create huge profits for insider bank traders that have been notified ahead of time. this is where technical analysis combined with intuition and a thorough understanding of fundamentals, criminality, and sentiment come in handy. i can "see" the setups.

It was interesting, not surprising. The move was obviously imminent. As for the sequence that it took place in, the specific technique was curious.

The pattern you described is especially important to grasp. The same has occurred in gold, only inverted. Has any of this fixed the problems? No. Has anything been done to actually fix the problems? No. The same pattern will therefore continue, the overall long-term trend intact.

Quote from: cypherdoc on September 14, 2011, 01:21:19 PM

now you're just being defiant. give me a little credit here. the fact that Dan Norcini and other gold bulls are just now coming to this realization of CB intervention that i had a month ago is significant. there IS a fire. i've listened to Dan every Friday for as long as KWN started after Eric King broke off from FSO. he is an example of a linear thinker. not to mention that he owns a bullion business if i recall correctly which severely biases his views. this is a high stakes game of tactical chess. i'm not just one or two moves ahead of him, i'm twelve moves ahead.

I realized there was something particularly special about gold a long time ago, but I don't claim that I discovered why this was by myself and in a vacuum. Credit where credit is due, when claims are justified. We all laugh at Al Gore for his claims regarding the internet. Even if we come to realizations on our own, it's good to keep in mind that they don't come to us from nowhere.

If I have seen further it is only by standing on the shoulders of giants. ~Isaac Newton

Twelve moves ahead might win a battle, but being ahead in the wrong direction will lose the war. Gold still is not the bubble.

Quote from: cypherdoc on September 14, 2011, 01:21:19 PM

you would be wise to not ignore this failed breakout. i've already told you the confusion and diverging signals is b/c we're at a fundamental transition btwn bull and bear markets. as we get in gear to the downside then the picture suddenly clarifies to everyones horror.

A "fundamental transition" is the explanation? That describes the situation, but not the mechanism.

Quote from: cypherdoc on September 14, 2011, 01:21:19 PM

as i said above, i'm neutral about foreigners and gold. i still think its dangerous for them b/c of the severe drain in liquidity they will experience as the CB's drain liquidity out of the system to kill gold.

These "foreigners" are anything but netural about gold, especially in Asia. Plenty of them are as savvy as the greatest western minds, if not more so because of longer-term vision.

Quote from: cypherdoc on September 14, 2011, 01:21:19 PM

i used to think that gold would go up in deflation or inflation too. until 2008. i learned. it won't protect in a CB coordinated effort to kill it via a severe drain in liquidity.

We're seemingly knee-deep in deflation. Has gold gone down? Did it sell off with equities? Speaking of equities, how did the mining companies do? Oh right, some new records while everything else was plummeting.

Quote from: cypherdoc on September 14, 2011, 01:21:19 PM

of course you have to learn from these guys which is why i read and listen to all the same guys you do. but heres the thing: you have to learn NOT to stand on the shoulders of giants but learn to stand on your own 2 feet. much of what they're saying is herd mentality and based on linear thinking. YOU are smarter than them. thats one thing i know for sure

Thanks. I've mentioned the logistic nightmare of doing all of your own studies all the time. It's unrealistic. Understanding and using what's of value is far better than re-inventing the wheel every step of the way, and it keeps you competitive. Don't fight the tide just because it's there. This also ties in with my bit about enjoying life instead of incessantly hovering over price charts.

Quote from: cypherdoc on September 14, 2011, 01:21:19 PM

ok, everyone listen up, i'll go out on a limb and make my next non linear prediction: somewhere along the line here you'll get an announcement from some CB that they are going to sell some of their gold. i wish i could give you an exact time but i'd guess somewhere in the range of 6 months. this will further accelerate the panic out of gold and will help serve the interests of the CB's to save their precious monetary system. i KNOW you haven't read this anywhere. who knows? maybe they'll trade gold in for Bitcoin

Bitcoin? I wish. Maybe in a few more years.

The topic of central banks selling their gold has been pondered ad infinitum. This is a minor issue compared to the overall trend. If a central bank does decide to sell (from Libya, perhaps?), the flow will be absorbed so fast you won't have a chance to blink or catch your breath before it's gone.

There's no need for exclusively linear, non-linear or head-up-your-ass thinking. Just diversify and prepare; go heavy with what you think is most beneficial. Most situations share a lot of the same preparation techniques.

Quote from: ghyze on September 14, 2011, 01:55:24 PM

But in the end we all have to think for ourselves.

One of the best points in this thread.

Quote from: cypherdoc on September 14, 2011, 02:14:53 PM

miscreanity calls gold an asset as do i. i believe that gold as an asset can inflate just like any other asset via USD inflation. the derivatives mkt is no different. as is the gold derivatives mkt. gold pundits argue that if we get a gold derivatives implosion there will be a scramble for physical gold which will drive it to the moon. but you have to ask yourselves: what were those derivative positions funded with? Answer: USD's. so if anything, a gold derivatives implosion should cause a scramble for USD's (or a shrinking of the total virtual USD's depending on how you like to think about this) causing a further skyrocketing of the USD. if THAT happens, what becomes of the physical gold price?

When I make a return from trading derivatives, I go and buy physical gold. What happens when demand for gold is higher, especially amid a more educated public? Physical gold demand explodes.

As derivatives collapse and US dollars are rushed into, instruments that formed the paper gold markets will completely devolve. Where will those USDs go next? Physical gold, among other real assets. Just because paper instruments are destroyed doesn't mean the demand disappears. The paper lie can only hold so long as the majority doesn't realize what's behind it.

This means that you will see a complete divergence: GLD goes to pennies while bullion premiums go through the roof. The officially stated price doesn't even have to rise for that to happen. In fact, that will serve to keep those oblivious to these activities still in the dark.

Quote from: cypherdoc on September 14, 2011, 02:18:17 PM

how much further does Goldcorp (GG), a bellwether gold stock, have to fall beneath its breakout line for it to be considered a "failed breakout"?

A managed market does not offer genuinely valid technical signals. By the same token, manipulation can only go so far. On very long term charts, the technicals will provide a better gauge of the long-term trend. This is why it can be hard to keep up with the daily gesticulations, but easy to see the big movements.

Quote from: ghyze on September 14, 2011, 02:51:07 PM

USD price for gold is pretty much irrelevant, if you use gold as a store of value.

Another excellent point.

Quote from: kjj on September 14, 2011, 03:16:06 PM

Decoupling.

...

At the time, I was watching silver much more closely than I was watching gold. One day when spot silver was under $10/oz, I remember the local coin store wouldn't part with a round for less than $20, and if you wanted Eagles, they were at least $22 each. I called around, and other dealers were demanding pretty similar prices. I don't think the gold premium was anywhere near 100%, but it was still pretty steep, maybe 30%-50%.

The price of actual physical metals had very much decoupled from their paper prices. Over time, they converged again, mostly by waiting for the paper prices to rise up to meet the physical prices. The funny part is that I've never ever seen historic data on premiums, so it is easy to forget that it happens, or even to never know about it in the first place.

So, the next time there is a panic (now?) and funds need to dump stuff to buy dollars, the paper price of physical metals will certainly drop, like you say. But that doesn't mean that those prices will have any bearing on the actual transaction prices in the real world.

I'm of the opinion that the situation back in 2008-2009 was very unusual. I wouldn't be willing to bet that the next event of this sort will actually cause the markets to decouple to the same extent, but there are quite a few gold and silver pundits that would be.

This is the heart of the matter. I wish I'd read further before writing my earlier responses. There's a recent video on gold premiums that looks at this.

Quote from: cypherdoc on September 14, 2011, 06:13:17 PM

the father in the group pulled out a torn, weathered German Mark of about 20M marks and gave it to me as a gift.

... anyways point being these things are still worthless all these years later. why?

its because they were "printed" into existence and were impossible to remove from circulation once done. this is why the 2 hyperinflations everyone always points to occurred; Zimbabwe and Weimar Germany. they did not have mature debt markets like we do in the US. this is why i don't think we see HT here. these debt dollars (virtual dollars) will just vaporize on default thus shrinking the money supply to be gone forever.

Now we can play "Fall of the Weimar Republic"! Any pictures? My apologies for the smartphone image quality.

Manifested debt (extended credit) has the same effect whether it is printed or a simple ledger entry that has no physical counterpart. Does debt disappear from bank records simply because it's a number in a database?

This issue was discussed. If the banks cut all credit lines down to their outstanding balances, that would reign in some of the system's excess. How much is dependent on the outstanding balances. You already established that your lines of credit are clear, but how many have maxed out credit cards and HELOCs? How much of that can be closed out? If it is written down at a loss, how many financial institutions would be around the next day? For that matter, how many companies that have large financial divisions would survive (recall General Motors' GMAC)?

Without a workable solution in place that can be fired up the moment the prior system collapse (don't fool yourself - there isn't one; Bitcoin certainly isn't ready yet), you're unwittingly hoping for the same thing the gold bugs are: Armageddon. Sadly, that's the end result at this stage no matter what happens.