Quote from: JBDive on September 18, 2011, 12:51:07 AM

Quote from: Hawker on September 17, 2011, 09:17:21 PM

Quote from: JBDive on September 17, 2011, 07:16:09 PM

Quote from: Hawker on September 17, 2011, 06:58:12 PM

Quote from: FredericBastiat on September 17, 2011, 06:31:35 PM

Quote from: Hawker on September 17, 2011, 06:14:08 PM

Fred, you have acknowledged that the service is needed. You are using the service - the protection that every member of society needs is provided to you. It has to be paid for and taxation is the correct way to do it. The only false statement is your strange idea that you can enjoy the protection and opt out of paying for it.

Taxation is one way to provide for services, saying it is correct is an is-ought fallacy. If you believe that unprovoked aggressive force is illegitimate, then taxation is theft. I don't enjoy the "protection" society provides me, because it is forced upon me at the point of a gun. I very much find that to be very much unenjoyable. By using force, you provide few other choices. How unfortunate.

Whether you enjoy it or not is not really the issue. You need safety; I need it; children need it. Its fortunate we are able to organise ourselves in a way that provides that safety. If you do come up with a better system, please feel free to let us know. Meanwhile, whether you enjoy it or not, this is the real world and its the best we can do. The system works well

And you have no alternative system.

That is a very disturbing thought, that the system we have is the best we can do and worse still that you somehow think the system works.

Here in the UK, we live in a rich society where our only serious problems are terrorism and how to handle obesity. Things are good. I don't know where you live but can it really be that bad that you think releasing violent mental patients won't make it worse?

You are joking right? UK unemployment is nearly as high as in the US and if properly reported it's in double digits. Unemployed youth is extremely high at around 20%, Wales even higher. The inflation rate is at 4.5% or higher and it looks like your trying your best to start another war over the Falklands.

Speaking of youth unemployment this is something the media and our politicians have ignored completely. The loss of lifelong earnings by our youth is something no country can ever recover from.

Even though our unemployed live more comfortably than the rich did 50 years ago, I absolutely agree that its terrible that a section of our society is being locked out of the middle class lifestyle.

But that isn't the issue here. The issue here is paying for the care of the violently mentally ill. We are all, Fred included, agreed that they do need 24/7 care and that everyone in society benefits from the protection that their being incarcerated/treated provides. I think this is a valid activity for government and its ethically OK to pay for it with taxes - Fred thinks that he should not have to pay for it at all.