Quote from: DooMAD on December 05, 2019, 07:52:37 PM

Quote from: The-One-Above-All on December 04, 2019, 11:33:54 PM

@doomad

You "seem" more reasonable than most...so let's see where this goes.

I think you need to think it over further. If you were eddie would you rather pressure was applied to the trust abuser to remove the red trust, or rather some other DT's that confirm it is invalid use of red trust to counter the abusive red trust? or as you seem to be suggesting , sit around waiting for years for enough people to decide (according to your reasoning) that his bad decisions outweigh his good? We do not follow with that anyway. If there is even ONE clear instance of the trust system being used to silence others for merely disagreeing with your views (that you should be able to make money escrowing for scams) then you need to be removed instantly. There is not place inside the trust system for those that will seek to abuse the privilege (even one time).

I think I see the problem here. Nuance isn't one of your strong suits, is it? Everything has to be black and white in order for you to find it acceptable. The slightest shade of murky and off the handle you fly. It's pretty clear you wanted a list of posts in this thread by various users saying "Lauda is wrong because x/y/z", because you want some sort of unilateral intervention. But that's not how trust is designed to work. Pressure is acceptable, but it's never going to be as clear-cut as an automatic, instant removal from DT (unless the offence is egregious enough to warrant a ban, or theymos decides to step in, that is). It clearly doesn't matter to you that you have the option to exclude Lauda AND exclude everyone who includes Lauda, which, as if by magic, changes that trusted feedback into untrusted. You can quite literally build a trust network of your very own. But nope, that's not enough for you. You want to overrule everyone and force them all to see it exactly the same way you do. No dissenting viewpoints. No ifs, buts or maybes.

Sorry, but life doesn't work that way. Find some coping mechanisms or something.

Each person still gets to make their own judgement calls and some of those people are still choosing to include Lauda, despite the fact this isn't the first controversy they've been embroiled in. Based on the guidelines that have been issued by theymos, that particular rating that triggered you is inappropriate. But you are not judge, jury and executioner when it comes to what qualifies as "abuse" of the trust system. It's not up to you to declare who suddenly has to go just because you don't like something they did. It's currently unfair to eddie13 and that's unfortunate. But the alternative, where an unsuspecting user who doesn't have a custom trust list might fall victim to a scam because the warning feedback for the perpetrator is no longer trusted, becomes a very real possibility. And if multiple victims are scammed, that's arguably far worse than a pissy comment on eddie13's page that has already been countered twice.

//EDIT: Three counters now.

You seem more reasonable than most so lets see how this goes..

READ IT ALL BEFORE COMMENTING FURTHER - if you want to give a sensible well grounded reply then you must find points that you clearly understand and can present a clear and sensible rebuttal to.

Firstly it is good that something was done about eddies undeniable trust abuse, we want to see fair treatment of ALL members. Lauda seems to be losing its grasp over the acolytes and does not even sound like the old (pre break) lauda at all. If it is lauda that will certainly upset them. Good.

HOWEVER the other suggestions that you make are clearly poorly researched. Lauda is NOT the prime focus. He and his supporting cronies are simply a symptom of the poor design. If they were all removed then over time the same situation would arise. Admittedly theymos STARTED with entrenching a tight knit bunch of scammers, willing scam facilitators, scammer supporters, trust abusers and generally greedy sig spammers like the pharmacist with DT positions and the powers (merit allocation) to entrench themselves deeper and deeper by only allocating merits to those they feel certain they can control. So recommending starting your own trust network is pointless. I mean the merit system would have been a GREAT honey pot actually to highlight those that will manipulate things for their own ends when such an easy to abuse system is put into place.

I mean have you read this thread, keep in mind that thing then were WAY less rigged since trust and merit had not been united (as clearly warned against in this thread) https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5088852.0 so now the systems of control are far far far easier to manipulate.

The focus is removing ALL POSSIBLE areas of subjectivity (that is where the abuse is allowed to manifest). Theymos tried ( we are still willing to believe he wants the same thing as ourselves a fair transparent system that ensures everyone is treated equally) with the flagging system but because he is too afraid to really piss the entire DT bunch off fully he left them the feedback system. This is ACTUALLY FAR WORSE NOW THAT WE THINK ABOUT IT BECAUSE..

He lowered the threshold for what you can give red trust for without it being classed as clear abuse BUT LEFT FULL PUNISHMENT POWERS THERE. It no longer apparently has to be for scamming or even for financially motivated wrongdoing. It is totally and utterly subjective and wide wide wide open to abuse for purely personal gain.

So ask yourself what MORE do you get for getting the highest level flag that you get for telling someone who comes to your thread (where you have posed 3 observable instances as scenarios) and starts ranting that those scenarios mean YOU HAVE BEEN FUCKED IN THE ASS to many times... and if you then tell them to either tackle the points made in the initial post or fuck off . THEN YOU CAN BE GIVEN RED TRUST by that person and his friends.

So for defending your own thread where you are randomly attacked and insisting he stay on topic and stop making weird sexual slurs and tackle the points made, you get the same punishment as if you DID A HUGE SCAM HERE and ripped hundreds of people off??

The worst punishment for most people here is having their sig stripped away by corrupt sig campaign managers that simply remove accountability from themselves and say... oh you have red trust from a DT you can't be trustworthy now and you can't join our scampaings. Or oh whoops our pals (who are all on our scampaigns btw) did not give you enough merits this month LOL ...sadly were too busy giving them to each other so that THEY can be on the best campaigns...haha

The entire systems of control have become MORE broken since the flagging system came in NOT less broken. Certainly in terms of crushing free speech.

The systems of control are WIDE OPEN TO ABUSE (to the point it is impossible to prove merit abuse it is so subjective) and then financially reward abuse LOL
They also allow you to entrench yourself inside them and to then punish others that state any truths about yourself they do not like.

If you can debunk ANY of our points then do so. Make sure you read the thread link to ensure you have a full understanding (not that it is difficult to grasp unless people do not WANT to grasp it) before posting further. There is no point arguing with people who do not understand clearly how the mechanisms operate and the clear undeniable implications of those mechanisms..

Keep in mind that no person has debunked that thread or any points made there. Because they are merely correct and accurate descriptions of how the systems of control worked BACK THEN before madness of linking merit/trust and then lowering the threshold of FEEDBACK to give it for what the fuck you like but still the punishment for receiving it is the same.

The implications for US is nothing. We care about sigs or trading but the implications for the free speech of others that do 99% of the board are clearly horrific.

Theymos has perhaps "tried" to improve things but has undeniably made things worse ever since merit was introduced. We notice he is throwing merit everywhere now trying to speed up the self regulating process. It will EVENTUALLY create more friction and some small improvement in self regulation but the friction and MAD threat to maintain order will still turn this entire board into a war zone because he does not understand that humans will NEVER accept being punished for lesser deeds by those that have committed far greater evils. That is the gaping hole in the great masterplan. You must remove THE SUBJECTIVITY or ROOM TO ABUSE.. subjectivity allows a 2 tier system to thrive.

The only way to fix it is to remove ALL subjectivity where at all possible and hand out some REAL punishments for blatant system controllers that abuse. Not fake punishment like blacklisting from DT1 so they just go on DT2 LOL ....

You note that NOBODY wants to discuss the 2 changes to fix up a lot of the subjectivity and make it a far more objective (FAIR) system??? WHY??? because the people hanging in meta board and whispering in theymos ear " pssss raise it to 250 merits theymos"...." pssss theymos let me be a merit source "..."psssss look I busted a couple of small time scammers you can't believe I would extort members right".... "psss theymos your ideas area all great theymos don't listen to him about changing things they are working just great (for us)"...." psss theymos you're our hero have some merits for farting"...

Then when theymos dares to suggest they exclude a proven scammer and trust abuser pal....." err theymos is SNEAKY, I don't like how theymos handled this in secret DARING To ask me things in PM, I don't appreciate theymos you daring to request me to do things It puts pressure on me" " hmm theymos is heavy handed isnt he..." " hhmm i may not post here for a while now"... LOL

LOL if theymos thinks these snakes that have snaked their way into merit source, DT are his pals and want the best for this forum he has rocks in his head. We have presented clear undeniable evidence of their prior scamming, sneaking, willing scam facilitating for pay, socket puppetry for pure financial gain, and the excuses they all make for each other, all the merit top 20 merit fans and recipients of each other (mostly). Punishing whistle blowers.

He would need to be MORE than blind and foolish NOT to notice all of these things but still he heaps MORE rewards to them, now a nice merit volume button for them to turn people down who they don't wish to be heard.

Perhaps he really does try to make things better but he is blundering from one mess to another. The implications of his alterations are undeniable.

If you want to debunk these points COME AND DO IT. Even theymos will not come and debate he hides there giving merit to anecdotal faux rebuttals from noobs who have no understanding of this forum AT ALL. They believe because they are the new useful idiots of these old time scammers and scum so are afforded some small rewards and a chipmixer badge that its all hunky dory haha

The 2 changes we have suggested will WE BELIEVE make things a lot better around here. It pulls away most of the subjective areas where they derive their abusive powers.

Make the fucking trust system about protecting people from FINANCIAL DANGER directly. Not make perform insane mental gymnastics and say because you like lemons you are likely to be untrustworthy or if you don't allow people to derail your threads and make strange slurs on you that you are clearly a financial danger.

That is EXACTLY how they totally pervert the systems of control so that you end up with a bunch OF PROVEN SCAMMERS AND THOSE THAT WILL EXCUSE THEIR ACTIONS using the trust system to punish THOSE HONEST MEMBERS THAT HAVE NOT EVEN 1 INSTANCE OF FINANCIALLY MOTIVATED WRONG DOING and have been arguably THE most net positive person in terms of making thing fair in the history of this forum.

Debunk ANY point that you can. We would welcome even a mild challenge to one of the central points we make. It is boring as fuck being surrounded by cowards and low functioning useful idiots or turd word servile scum that will do or say anything to get a higher paid sig spot (although we sympathize with them more than the totally greedy other scum here)

Even those that try to stay out of it claiming "don't want to get involved with politics" although they see clear scammers here punishing whistleblowers are pathetic weaklings that are contribution to the corruption by preventing the self regulation that is KEY for the systems to function as designed.

QUEUE the excuses... too long to read, boring, insane, trolling, lying, mental illness, wrong it works fine for me, theymos does not care, on ignore can't read it, or just silence due to no person being able to debunk or demonstrate any of the central points are correct.

Not one clear debunking of ANY of the central points though.