Quote from: DannyHamilton on January 21, 2020, 05:31:24 PM

Quote from: antikvark on January 20, 2020, 08:17:04 PM

The following sentence: "The Earth is round", is a series of characters capable of being proven true. But is not money.

Only because it is not "generally accepted as payment for goods and services and repayment of debts." The fact that it is not money has nothing to do with whether it is a record of ownership or not.

Quote from: antikvark on January 20, 2020, 08:17:04 PM

Money is a thing (ownership) which is represented with a record. It is something outside the record.

That "thing" that money is a record of is "value". It doesn't need to be (and typically isn't) a physical object. In nearly all modern cases, money is simply a verifiable record of control over value.

Quote from: antikvark on January 20, 2020, 08:17:04 PM

Finally, human concepts can be extremely irrational. If ~~membership in the community of Bitcoin holders~~ control over a quantity of bitcoin has "value" to someone he/she is free to ~~investment~~ invest his/her entire savings into it.

FTFY

Quote from: antikvark on January 20, 2020, 08:17:04 PM

But he/she won't be able to benefit until a new member enters the community.

Not true at all. That bitcoin can be exchanged with other members of the Bitcoin community for anything else of value. Bitcoin does not require "new members" at all.

Quote from: antikvark on January 20, 2020, 08:17:04 PM

And this is exactly how all fraudulent schemes operate. And that's why they all eventually collapse.

No. There are a lot of different fraudulent schemes. The one thing they all have in common is that they depend on fraud. That is true regardless of whether the person/people operating the scheme are acquiring bitcoin, USD, gold, silver, real estate, or anything else of value.

Quote from: antikvark on January 20, 2020, 08:17:04 PM

Money is something that doesn't require the addition of a new member to be able to provide benefit to its holder.

Bitcoin doesn't require the addition of a new member to be able to provide benefit to its holder.

Quote from: antikvark on January 20, 2020, 08:17:04 PM

That is because the benefit comes from the entitlement or utility that is behind money.

No. The benefit comes from the fact that it is "generally accepted as payment for goods and services and repayment of debts."

If you are holding gold (unless you are manufacturing something with it), the only benefit you receive is that someone else is willing to accept that gold. You can't eat it. You can't drink it. It isn't providing you shelter or entertainment. The only benefit it is providing you is the value that it carries due to the willingness of others to accept it as payment.

If you are holding USD, the only benefit you receive is that someone else is willing to accept those USD. You can't eat it. You can't drink it. It isn't providing you shelter or entertainment. The only benefit it is providing you is the value that it carries due to the willingness of others to accept it as payment.

Quote from: antikvark on January 21, 2020, 08:43:11 AM

When a record is created in order to verify the fact that you came into the possession of some property, we talk about ownership record.

When a record is created in order to verify the fact that you joined some group, we talk about membership record.

And when a record is created in order to verify the fact that you have control over something that is "generally accepted as payment for goods and services and repayment of debts," we talk about Money.

Quote from: antikvark on January 21, 2020, 08:43:11 AM

When a record is created in the blockchain, this is not because you came into the possession of some property.

And when someone hands you a $100 USD bill, this is not because you came into possession of some property either.

Quote from: antikvark on January 21, 2020, 08:43:11 AM

Instead, this record is created because you joined the group of Bitcoin holders.

No. The record is created because you have been given control over some value.

Quote from: antikvark on January 21, 2020, 08:43:11 AM

In the beginning, membership entrance fee - that granted you one membership stake, was $0.02.

No. In the beginning, bitcoin didn't have value. Just like in the beginning gold didn't have value. Then eventually humans decided that bitcoin was useful and they began to desire it. This gave it value. Just like humans eventually decided that gold was useful and they began to desire it, which gave it value. The most popularly known early transaction was 10,000 BTC for 2 large pizzas. Assuming an approximate cost of $15 per pizza, this would imply that the early value that humans attributed to bitcoin was $0.003 (not $0.02).

Quote from: antikvark on January 21, 2020, 08:43:11 AM

Today it is $8.500. Why membership in this group became so expensive is mystery given that membership grants nothing to stakeholders.

Clearly you fail to understand the basic concepts of supply and demand.

Quote from: antikvark on January 21, 2020, 08:43:11 AM

But what is certain is that this is the largest fraudulent scheme in the history of mankind.

What is certain is that you have strong opinions that don't line up with reality.

There is no need for these red-herring comments. You won't change reality with them. The reality is this. Paper or digital records, such as dollars, bonds and stocks, grant monetary or non-monetary benefits to their holders. They grant interest or divided to their holders when in circulation. And they grant non-monetary repayments, principal, and liquidation value when their issuers take them out of circulation - dollars when borrowers reply their loans, bonds at maturity date, and stocks when a company goes out of business. Bitcoin grants their holders zero interest or divided when in circulation. Bitcoin is never taken out of circulation by its issuer. So, Bitcoin is a worthless record in an infinite circulation chain that can provide benefit to it's holders only and only when someone exchanges it for either, the above mentioned benefit providing records, or actual, tangible, goods or services. And this is exactly how all ponzi-like schemes operate. Bitcoins is simply a classical ponzi-like scheme dressed up in a new(digital) uniform. That's the reality. You can accept it or you can keep writing red-herring comments.