Quote from: DannyHamilton on January 23, 2020, 04:52:13 PM

Quote from: antikvark on January 23, 2020, 01:35:06 PM

Irrelevant points. In the bitcoin scheme, investors are paid from funds that came from the pockets of other bitcoin investors.

In ALL INVESTMENTS, funds are paid from the funds that come from the pockets of other investors.

If you buy gold at $1500 USD per ounce and then later sell it at $1550 USD per ounce...
It doesn't matter that you had "ownership" of that gold. The fact still remains that your $50 profit per ounce CAME FROM THE POCKETS OF ANOTHER INVESTOR.

If you buy land at $4000 USD per acre, and then later sell it at $4400 USD per acre...
It doesn't matter whether you had "ownership" of that land. The fact still remains that your $400 profit per acre CAME FROM THE POCKETS OF ANOTHER INVESTOR.

Quote from: antikvark on January 23, 2020, 01:35:06 PM

That's Ponzi-like.

Clearly, it isn't.

Quote from: antikvark on January 23, 2020, 01:35:06 PM

Scheme organizers are miners. They issue new bitcoins,

No. they don't. They purchase the issued bitcoins (through the cost purchasing and operating the mining equipment), and then they sell the bitcoins to those that want them.

Quote from: antikvark on January 23, 2020, 01:35:06 PM

but pay nothing to bitcoin holders.

They pay bitcoins to the bitcoin purchasers. As we've already established, Bitcoins have value.

Quote from: antikvark on January 23, 2020, 01:35:06 PM

In legitimate investments, issuers of an instrument pay its holders monetary or non-monetary value, as I have explained above.

With gold, the miner of the gold pays local currency to acquire mining equipment. Then uses that mining equipment (along with operating costs) to acquire the gold. Then pays the gold (which has a value attributed to it by humans) to the purchaser of the gold in exchange for local currency.

With Bitcoin, the miner of the Bitcoin pays local currency to acquire mining equipment. Then uses that mining equipment (along with operating costs) to acquire the Bitcoin. Then pays the Bitcoin (which has a value attributed to it by humans) to the purchaser of the Bitcoin in exchange for local currency.

I don't see a difference here.

Quote from: antikvark on January 23, 2020, 01:35:06 PM

In the bitcoin scheme, miners pay nothing to bitcoin holders, which is why these holders can be paid only from funds of other bitcoin investors, like in classical ponzi-like schemes.

You keep saying this, but saying it doesn't make it true. You can say that black is white as many times as you like, it won't change the fact that you are wrong. None of your examples, or explanations stand up to scrutiny.

That's besides the point. Gold is a commodity, and not record like Bitcoin, fiat, bonds and stocks. So, in the case of gold nobody has to pay anything to gold holder - as this holder already has tangible good. It's like buying a car - you don't expect payment from a seller when you purchase a car. But when you invest into some project or paper/digital record, then you expect payment from project organizer or record issuer. In Ponzi, the payment is possible only from funds of other investors. In bitcoin also. And that's the point.

Regarding bitcoin issuers. It doesn't matter who issues bitcoin. What matters is that its holders are not paid by the issuers like in all legitimate investments, but by other bitcoin investors, like in Ponzi schemes.