Quote from: DannyHamilton on January 23, 2020, 07:56:07 PM

Quote from: antikvark on January 23, 2020, 07:00:43 PM

That's besides the point.

No. It isn't. You want it to be, and you keep claiming that it is, but none of your statements on the matter stand up to scrutiny. They sound great as a sound bite if you just declare them to be true and then move on hoping that nobody looks too closely, but with even a cursory look into the details of what you're saying the whole opinion falls apart.

Quote from: antikvark on January 23, 2020, 07:00:43 PM

Gold is a commodity, and not record like Bitcoin, fiat, bonds and stocks. So, in the case of gold nobody has to pay anything to gold holder - as this holder already has tangible good. It's like buying a car - you don't expect payment from a seller when you purchase a car.

Equally, Bitcoin is a digital good. It has value, and as such you don't expect payment from a seller when you purchase Bitcoins.

Quote from: antikvark on January 23, 2020, 07:00:43 PM

But when you invest into some project or paper/digital record, then you expect payment from project organizer or record issuer.

Not true. When I use my USD to purchase Euro, or Peso, or Yen, or any other currency, I do not expect the issuer of that currency to pay me USD.

Bitcoin is not an investment into a "project". It is a money. The exchange rate between Bitcoin and any other money may vary over time, and some people can take advantage of this varying exchange rate to profit (just like you could profit by taking advantage of variations between the exchange rate between USD and the Euro). Anyone that expects some "issuer" to pay them for accepting Bitcoin has wildly misunderstood what Bitcoin is and how it works.

Quote from: antikvark on January 23, 2020, 07:00:43 PM

In Ponzi, the payment is possible only from funds of other investors. In bitcoin also. And that's the point.

In ALL TRANSACTIONS, payment is only possible from funds of someone else paying you. That's the DEFINITION OF A FINANCIAL TRANSACTION.

You seem to like to say:

"Look, someone paid someone, in a Ponzi people pay people, therefore it is a Ponzi!"

Then when someone points out that there are lots of reasons that people pay people, and that they are not all Ponzi, you respond with:

"Those examples are beside the point. In those examples, someone paid someone and since they were paid it's ok. But in Bitcoin someone pays someone, and in Ponzi someone pays someone, therefore Bitcoin is a Ponzi!"

It's circular nonsense that carries no meaning. Yes, in a scam, a person is convinced to give another person something of value. That is NOT what makes it a scam. People give other people things of value all the time in situations that are not a scam. Until you can understand this, you aren't going to get anywhere in this conversation.

Quote from: antikvark on January 23, 2020, 07:00:43 PM

Regarding bitcoin issuers. It doesn't matter who issues bitcoin.

It does matter. It matters because NOBODY issues Bitcoin. Since nobody issues Bitcoin, there is nobody to operate a "Ponzi". There is nobody to be a "Scheme Organizer" (which is who you claim should be paying someone).

Quote from: antikvark on January 23, 2020, 07:00:43 PM

What matters is that its holders are not paid by the issuers

One cannot be paid by someone that does not exist. What matters is that holders should not expect to be paid by anyone for holding. It is not an "investment" into a business. It does not pay "dividends" or "interest". It is an inflationary money that will eventually become deflationary.

Quote from: antikvark on January 23, 2020, 07:00:43 PM

like in all legitimate investments, but by other bitcoin investors, like in Ponzi schemes.

There you go saying words again that don't make sense, and that are contradictory.

Saying "Bitcoin is a digital gold" is like saying "Bitcoin is a digital car, or digital apple or digital pizza ...". Hence, just playing rhetorical games.

When you purchase Euro you expect to spend it since you cannot eat it or drink it. Hence you expect the non-monetary value. This value is provided by the borrowers prior to their loan payments, as explained in the video.

Financial transaction or paying with an instrument is not replying an instrument. I can pay you in bonds, stocks or dollars but bond, stock or dollar issuer is the one who repays these instruments. In bitcoin, its issuers don't repay it, which is why this repayment is possible only from funds of other bitcoin investors. To put it another way. Bitcoin is worthless since all value is brought by new investors. Just like in all ponzi-like schemes.