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Quote from: Peter Lambert on February 24, 2014, 04:10:24 PM

There is more to religion than what is written in a book. True religion is about what you do, not what you say. A true Christian is somebody who loves all people, not somebody who says "I am a Christian".

I agree that true Christianity is all about love. That pretty much sums up the main point Jesus made when he said the greatest commandment was "to love your neighbor as yourself." So with that perspective, this debate is not the most important thing. But it does have an effect on the fact that many people discredit the Bible now entirely.

Also, you can call it crazy that we take the Bible literally, and many other Christians think we are as well. But the problem with just picking and choosing which parts of the Bible we agree with or don't agree with is that we are undermining the Bible. We are in essence saying that it could all be "fairy tales." Which parts are then made up? Do we just pick what makes sense based on what scientists are speculating is true? If we don't like some of God's laws do we just ignore them? Where is that line? And in essence, do we trust God or science? That is what it comes down to for me. If God is a God of miracles, which I believe He is, then He is able to do anything outside of the "rules" of science anyways.

Ahem, you have it wrong. Jesus said the greatest commandment was to "love God with all your soul", loving others comes in second.

If you believe there is a god, then why not just ask him which parts of the Bible are supposed to be taken literally?

True. In loving others we are loving God so they very much go together I believe so lving God with all our soul should then cause us to love our neighbors as our self.

I used to believe that evolution was a non-issue but over time have begun to realize that the Bible should be taken as literally as possible. Granted, not with a legalistic mindset (It can often go hand in hand it seems and I understand that) But to fear God for me is to respect Him and His word and to live it out as much as possible in every area of my life.

This is a key part. You only love or believe in him out of fear. It's exactly like an abusive relationship. If god really loves us all I don't think he'd be bothered when people use their god-given intelligence to cast doubt on his existence. Especially when the only evidence for him is in a book. I'm also not sure how we're meant to know which book is true or not. What if the bible is the work of the devil and the Koran (or something else) is the one true book?

The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. It is foolish NOT to fear God.

Shouldn't we fear and respect the one that has the power to send us to hell?

The Koran is not a book of Love. Sure there are some "truths" in all religions, or people would not follow them. Like I said in other posts, the one thing that differentiates Christianity from the rest is that Christianity is not about what we can do to earn our way to "heaven" or whatever heightened spiritual place the religion teaches. Christianity is all about what God, out of His great love for us, has done. We have the choice to accept that or reject that. Then out of fear and reverence we then follow Him because of His love. It is like a healthy father/child relationship. One where the child knows the Father's place and listens to Him and does what He asks, even when it does not always make sense because we can trust He really does know what is best for us.

He only seems to have love for those who grovel out of fear to him. There's no choice or love there. It's love me or else you'll pay. It's 100% an abusive relationship. You also didn't answer how you know the bible is the correct book. How do you know you've not been duped by Satan into believing the wrong religion? There's also lots of hateful things in the bible.

To truly grasp that God, out of love for us, would send His only son to die for our sins, is what changes the perception of a vengeful God into a merciful God. That said, He still is to be respected, just as we would respect our Father figure (or should respect our fathers. Many kids do not seem to anymore unfortunately.)

The Bible is ~~also~~ a ~~historical~~ book that shows man's evil choices and even God's vengeance on those that have made their choice against Him. Usually God's hand is moved out of compassion on those who are trying to serve Him and are being abused. I know that I have experienced this in my life first hand. A strange and sudden death occurred for a guy that had abused me and other kids. It was several years the abuse occurred for me but perhaps God said "enough" and then allowed His sudden death? I will never know for sure. God is patient but there does come a time when he removes His hand and allows people to suffer the consequences of their choices. That does not change who He is though. He is faithful, just, forgiving and kind and compassionate to those that truly seek Him.

Are you serious? He sent down his only son to be crucified? How exactly did him dying save anyone? How did he die for my sins? Why was it even necessary? It's bizarre and completely perverse to think a loving god would do this. And how is Jesus his only son? Arent we all his children. I also wouldn't respect my father if he had me crucified and threatened that I'd burn forever if I didn't love him. That's pure psychological abuse and murderous sadomasochism.

And if god gave a shit about you or anyone else he wouldn't let abuse happen in the first place.

How did Jesus save anyone?
Adam and Eve sinned when they disobeyed God in the Garden of Eden. They were cast from the garden. But God promised He would send them salvation through a "child" which was Jesus. Then God established a relationship with the Israelites (now the Jews) in which he gave them the 10 commandments. These were God's laws that we are all accountable for. There needed to be a sacrifice for sins and it was done in the form of a lamb. (I am not sure why God chose this for the payment of sins but that is what God did.)Jesus became the ultimate atonement for our sins. He paid the price and all we have to do is accept His payment for our sins or we can just deny that we have any sin or deny that God is real. We have that choice but we are still accountable to the 10 Commandments. I personally do not want to die and stand before God without having my sins be atoned for. That won't end well. I am forever grateful for what Jesus has done for me.

So god made up a rule that Eve couldn't eat a stupid apple, which she did. (if he created women, he should know how they are Tongue

)
So than he made up a punishment for us, we would rot in hell for eternity because of that one stupid apple. After a while he made a child, and than killed it and said, you know what, because I killed my own son which was fun enough. You can go all free, but you know, those 10 laws I made up a while ago, you still need to follow those because else I will still punish you till eternity. And you got to worship me and be really thankful to my son, because if I didn't get him killed. I would make your lives even worse.

Yeah, I understand you fear that god, he has some real issues.

And why does your god gives forgiveness for everything unless you don't believe in him, I was baptized and did those 2 ceremonial things when I was a child (no clue how they're called in English). Mostly because it's tradition, my wife and I broke the tradition by not marrying for the church. We are both atheist, and that would condemn us to an eternity in hell, we can't get forgiveness for that. Even though we would never hurt anyone, we don't kill, steal or abuse anyone. Still we go to hell and the priest that abused little children can go chill on a cloud in heaven. Doesn't really makes sense, does it?

And the freaky part is, you live in fear of something that doesn't exist, their is no proof of a god and nothing that points in a direction that there is a god.

Wow. So much here to comment on.

I too have questioned why God even gave man a choice to choose to disobey in the garden of Eden. I think our gift of "free will" is a powerful thing though. I like to think that God wanted to know if we would choose to have a relationship with him by our own choice, not because we are being forced to love him. If we could force our spouse or children to love us how would we really know if they loved us or not?

As for God allowing Jesus to die for our sins, the point is that our sins are a serious thing. It is something that is taken so lightly in our world now though. But most people are not grateful for what Jesus has done for them.

As for the priest going to heaven for abusing children, the only way that a priest that abused children could go to heaven is if he truly repented and asked forgiveness for that. If he was covering up his sins, and even acting like he was "holy" he would be sent to Hell just like anyone else that did not repent. And many Christian churches have no issue with anyone being married outside of the church. Those are man's rules, not God's. Men keep adding their own rules to the Bible and that causes problems. In fact, the Catholic church requiring priests not to marry is not in the Bible and it might be why there is so many problems with abuse in the Catholic church too. I have other issues with the Catholic church but those are a couple. This is why it is important to read the Bible for ourselves.

I think that many people today, like you it appears, are what appears to be "good people." Based on comparing yourself to others you are probably living a pretty moral life. Because of that you are reaping the rewards of what making good choices brings such as healthy loving relationships and trying to make the world a better place. This is great but the problem is that it does not change the fact that no matter how good we are there is a standard that is higher. God's standard is one we can never live up to, and He knows this. That is why out of mercy He has provided a way for us to have a relationship with Him and eternal life. In fact, the Bible says that "those who are forgiven of much love much." In a weird sort of way those that really have a deep appreciation and love of Jesus are those that screwed up more than others and have come to realize that Jesus loves them just like they are. It is not about earning our way to God. It is about understanding His deep love for us and then allowing Him to change us because of that.

You can question my relationship with God but I know what my relationship is. It is one in which He has brought tremendous healing. I have much gratitude of what He has done for me. He has helped me make choices that have kept me from many problems in my life and I know that regardless of what difficulties I will have to go through in this hard life I am not alone.