Quote from: htspringer on March 01, 2014, 03:25:12 AM

Quote from: CoinHoarder on February 27, 2014, 08:58:20 PM

Hi,

I'm wondering if the OP or someone from Alitin Mint can help me. I am failing to see how this is much of an improvement from tamper proof holograms. I am not trying to cause drama, I simply am wondering if I am thinking about it wrong. I know since I also make physical cryptocoins this will likely look like an attack of some sort, but I am genuinely worried about the security of your product and the claims you are making of how they are more secure than original physical Bitcoins with tamper proof holograms. I have spent many hours lately doing different experiments on how to improve security on the original design of physical Bitcoins, but I don't see this as a very good solution.

I think you guys protected the coin from the obvious... radiation techniques due to the engraved private key, but it seems to me the only line of defense against retrieving the private keys of these coins is the hologram on the coin case. Which as we know can likely be removed showing no to little signs using acetone, just like the older coins that you claim are inferior to yours. That defeats the whole sales pitch here.. minus the very attractive coin artwork. The process a bad actor could take is:

1. Have a replica of the plastic coin case made in China for $1-5 each
2. Remove the coin from the packaging and retrieve the private key from the edges of the coin.
3. Remove the hologram from the original coin case using acetone showing no to little signs of intrusion.
4. Print new labels, QR code, whatever is inside the coin case and put them in the new replica case.
5. Place the coin back in the replica coin case you had made and seal it.
6. Place the hologram on the coin case back where it should be like nothing happened.

I know Alitin says "you can send a picture by email and find out if it is counterfeit or not". However, I have a hard time believing that they do not do this by checking a certain security feature they added to their hologram. This is something that can be easily implemented in the old design of physical cryptocoins.. just a coin and a hologram.

I am just failing to see how this is any better. It would require a little more work to tamper with than a normal physical cryptocoin, but it is still doable IMO. Even at today's prices there is likely enough incentive (cost versus reward) to do this... imagine when Bitcoin really goes to the moon. Please prove me wrong, the reason for my post here today is purely academic and I wish Alitin Mint all the best. I hope I can make it to the Texas Bitcoin Conference to talk about this with you guys face to face and in depth. I only live a couple hours away so I think I can come.. I just have to see if I can get off work.

Thanks

I spoke with the CEO of Alitin Mint today. He explained that their biggest concern has been the ability for someone to open the case, steal the private key, and reseal the case. The case is virtually impossible to open without breaking, because the "braided seal" is stronger than the surrounding acrylic case. The second consideration is the possibility of a thief breaking the case open, stealing the private key, and replacing it with a new case. He said that in their attempts to break into the cases without destroying them, they almost always ended up marring either the insert, hologram or signature. The creation of a new case, at least in the US would cost at least $4,000 - $5,000 for the mold. I have some personal experience with plastic injection molding, and it not cheap. The case has the Alitin logo on it, and anyone making a copy would have to go to considerable effort to get it exact. I know it would be substantially cheaper in China, but a lot of their discounts are for large quantities of product. Either way, it would require considerable effort and expense to get a duplicate case.
Even with a duplicate case, a thief would need to figure out how to duplicate that seal, which is unlike any I have seen. They said that it was a system they developed within their company, and they are not publishing how it is done.
Finally, they have a proprietary cipher system that is three layers deep. They would not say what it is, because they think that if they divulged that information it would weaken their system. They just reassured me that they could definitely determine if a case was theirs vs a counterfeit. Maybe if you speak with them in Austin they will give you more info.
The other question is whether or not the coins themselves could be counterfeited. That would be a big challenge. There are not very mints in the US that could make such a coin. If you took a coin like this to a mint and wanted to duplicate it, I doubt that any mint would for fear that they would be an accomplice to counterfeiting. They have strict protocols If you wanted to do it yourself, it would require substantial skill and many thousands of dollars of equipment to do so. I'm sure it's possible, but I doubt that any thief would go to such extraordinary measures. These coins are struck with dies and are not cast out of liquid silver. If someone tried to cast one, it would look a lot different than a struck coin.
If you contrast this to the security of physical bitcoins with holograms, I think there is no comparison. It has been clearly demonstrated that solvents can lift off the hologram, and that it can be replaced with minimal effort and very minimal damage. Also, the coins themselves are generally much less complex in design and would, I suspect, be less challenging to counterfeit.
I feel really good about the security of these coins...particularly by the cipher system that they have in place which they claim is practically bullet-proof.

I don't think you would have to worry much unless the price per Bitcoin was $100,000. Even then it is not likely to happen. If you don't feel comfortable with it then just pass on it. Pretty simple if you ask me.