Quote from: JayJuanGee on Today at 12:07:46 AM

Quote from: xhomerx10 on August 01, 2020, 04:36:47 PM

Quote from: JayJuanGee on July 31, 2020, 05:28:52 PM

Quote from: xhomerx10 on July 31, 2020, 04:44:29 PM

Quote from: lightfoot on July 31, 2020, 03:20:18 AM

Quote from: xhomerx10 on July 31, 2020, 03:11:35 AM

He seems to have lived his life on his own terms. That alone deserves respect.

Too bad he gave up on reality and started drinking the Kool-Aid. Happens to a lot of successful people, they think that just because they are successful at one thing they are experts in everything.

The reality is that many people successful or not don't like being told what to do regardless of the consequence. I don't think there is any new Kool-Aid involved wrt the mask. Sure, the science is out;

Do you really think that "we" already know about science related to the virus? whether we are talking about masks or a variety of other aspects of the way that it affects people and the utility, effectiveness or cost benefits of various precautionary measures? whether we are talking about masks or other possible protections?

I was referring to the science of the mask itself; it prevents droplets of infected spittle from being expelled from the mouth into the surrounding space not only when coughing or sneezing but also when talking, singing, yelling, cheering etc. In the early stages of the pandemic, the guidance from WHO was that healthy people need not to wear a mask. That's logical and rational, right? That's science.

First off, I had to do a double-take regarding your seeming attempt to out wall of text me, which I believe has been noted in subsequent posts.

Angry

Let me allow my anger to sink in for a bit more and for a while, longer...

Angry

Regarding the substance of your above point, I understand that the WHO has been pointed out as waffling, being inconsistent and even getting political, such as covering up Chinese misinformation.. so yes, there are some problems with their contradictory stances and then seeming attempts to recover from that.

I would not be proclaiming that science is either absolute or that it has not be without its problematic influences, but I will still maintain that value can still be gotten from various kinds of science and even looking at its methodology or even demanding from time to time that both it's work has to be shown and that there might not be any absolute answer on some questions or that preliminary results may have led to bad outcomes. Even if there might be people or institutions to blame for bad science or bad information, each of us needs to be humble enough to either admit that there might be certain science claims that we do not understand or that sometimes we get things wrong... and to attempt to learn from the various mistakes and even take corrective actions if there had been some corruption or bias issues involved in previous communications of facts and/or science..

Quote from: xhomerx10 on August 01, 2020, 04:36:47 PM

In general, it's true because the mask is much much better at preventing an infected person from expelling droplets of infected spittle into the air many meters around them potentially infecting others. Healthy people cannot transmit something they don't have. That's the science... but wait there's more! It turns out that many people that had Covid-19 were asymptomatic. Oops.

Of course, we know that there are various ways to transmit, various measures that can be taken and various questions regarding both when a person might be contagious and whether someone who has already caught Corona might be able to catch it again.

You, xhomerx10, seem to be describing some background that supports my point is that there are knowns, unknowns and unknown unknowns, still.

Quote from: xhomerx10 on August 01, 2020, 04:36:47 PM

Has science failed us? No, but it turns out (surprise, surprise) that healthy is not an objective description with respect to Covid-19. Well it's too late. You've already said, "Healthy people need not wear masks" and the world was listening.

I think that some of these matters are still being studied, so don't lock yourself into a position too soon, homer.

Quote from: xhomerx10 on August 01, 2020, 04:36:47 PM

Some countries issued guidance based on that recommendation. Fast forward a couple of months and now you have to backtrack because it turns out that "healthy" is actually quite subjective.

Yes. There has been lots of variations in terms of how various countries had implemented guidelines, the extent to which ppe and facilities to socially distance (or separate known infected peeps) were available, variation in compliance and variation in both tests available and ability to socially trace once positive results were discovered.

Quote from: xhomerx10 on August 01, 2020, 04:36:47 PM

In my mind, distancing, decontamination and masks should have been used initially to combat the spread before we even toyed with the idea of locking down.

It's quite likely that various lock downs were accomplished with such recklessness that almost anyone could point to better targeted ways to attempt to address the specific virus issue.. so I am not sure how far we are going to get if we are going to discuss the so many ways that shutdowns could have been better tailored including various kinds of empowering measures like ramping up testing and the production of ppe and social distancing facilities whether treatment or lodging or other attempts at targeting efforts.

Quote from: xhomerx10 on August 01, 2020, 04:36:47 PM

Once we have a proper and plentiful testing kits, then we should have moved to isolating infected people only. Shutting down the world was a bad idea and we'll have hell to pay for that in the future. Alas, I am not a Pharmacist.

Probably no one is going to disagree with you regarding an overall statement that targeting could have been carried out better, yet some folks might disagree whether you are a pharmacist... **

** by the way, I believe that a more specifically trained person for this virus matter would be an epidemiologist rather than a pharmacist.. but who is trying to parse these kinds of details, anyhow, besides us?

Quote from: xhomerx10 on August 01, 2020, 04:36:47 PM

Quote from: JayJuanGee on July 31, 2020, 05:28:52 PM

Quote from: xhomerx10 on July 31, 2020, 04:44:29 PM

the science is out on many things which we also ignore on a daily basis without any consideration.

That's true, but does not mean that we know hardly shit about this particular virus, yet.

Sure, we could pick almost any topic, and there would be controversy about what "science" applies, even though there are some kinds of science that are less controversial than others and even harder to argue against.. such as whether 1+1 = 2 versus if there are some more complicated variables in the equation that needs to be measured.

I agree on both counts. One of the things we don't know and no country seems to care to find out is the absolute number of infections. From early on, we were only testing front-line healthcare workers and people showing symptoms and then we were surprised by the possibility of asymptomatic transmission.

I think that there were various approaches, and sure we agree that better targeting could have been accomplished.

Quote from: xhomerx10 on August 01, 2020, 04:36:47 PM

We don't know what role children could play in the transmission of the virus since they have been isolated for most of this and yet, at least in my region, we are being told that children will be returning to school in September, wearing masks for 6 hours per day and somehow socially distancing for lunches and recesses. I think we're relying too heavily on the mask in this case.

I cannot really disagree with you here, even though my middle name is "disagree" Tongue

Quote from: xhomerx10 on August 01, 2020, 04:36:47 PM

Quote from: JayJuanGee on July 31, 2020, 05:28:52 PM

Quote from: xhomerx10 on July 31, 2020, 04:44:29 PM

Speeding, smoking, drinking alcohol, using drugs, unprotected sex, going to the Moon/Mars and not wearing your seat belt... Some people are more inclined to take risks than others.

Fair enough.. but with a virus, there is more than just a one way street - including potential exponential spreading.. whether you believe that it is contagious or spreadable or not... maybe it is NOT as spreadable as it is made out to be? some of those aspects of the virus seem to NOT be well known yet, even though I bet that there are some scientist that know way the fuck more than others. There are also some scientist that are likely full of shit, too.

The other things I mentioned are not just a one-way street but I'm not going to itemize each one and describe how. Even if you think they are a one-way street, the third most common cause of death in developed countries is alcohol and it accounts for over 3% of deaths world-wide annually. Tobacco use causes more than 8 million deaths annually but 1.2 million of those are non-smokers. I said wasn't going to do that. Sorry.
Many scientists are full of shit but at the same time, analyzing data is no easy task. They likely have good intentions.

Does this mean that we agree or we don't regarding something that is contagious being of a slightly different category, even though there may still be weighing of community versus individual interests with any kinds of policy considerations?

Quote from: xhomerx10 on August 01, 2020, 04:36:47 PM

Quote from: JayJuanGee on July 31, 2020, 05:28:52 PM

Quote from: xhomerx10 on July 31, 2020, 04:44:29 PM

I'm not going to condemn the man based on that one thing - it was his choice. Maybe his death will serve as the motivation for others who are on the fence about wearing a mask to put one on; especially those who are in the "more susceptible" categories.

I will agree with you that notable figures can sometimes serve as a better example (and perhaps resonate with others) better than not really knowing of any examples or maybe getting bad information in regards to some of the examples that any one of us might hear about... including whether the examples are anecdotal or representative... which comes with study and perhaps with the passage of time and the witnessing of more data, too.

Of course, there are some people who are overly scared and overly precautious. I have some difficulties understanding much if any benefits in wearing a mask outdoor when no people are around, except that maybe there might be some easiness in not having to take it off and put it back on, perhaps... but anyhow, I doubt that there is any real benefit in some of the philosophies of the Corona parties.. when there is purposeful desires to catch the virus in order to help with the increasing of herd immunity, if such a thing exists with this particular virus. Anyhow, good on you, if you want to purposefully catch Corona virus and somehow serve as an unpaid subject of a study that is still in the process of figuring out a lot of the variables and a lot of the scenarios.

I think wearing a mask in heavily populated cities outside makes sense. In other cities where you can actually swing a cat, wearing a mask only when entering enclosed public spaces makes sense. Increased hand-washing and improved sanitization efforts makes sense everywhere.

If we keep agreeing so much, we are going to have to get a room together, I would not want that. Angry

#nohomo.

Quote from: xhomerx10 on August 01, 2020, 04:36:47 PM

This is merely anecdotal but I've had to continue working throughout this pandemic. Those who could work from home were told to do so which reduced the number of people physically coming to work to ~400. If we have symptoms, we must call a special health line to see if we should come to work, we have our temperature checked before entering work through one main gate, they have placed hand sanitizer stations in high traffic areas, we are using distancing and they have employed people to regularly clean/sanitize key areas. If I we have to work within 6 feet of one another, we must wear a mask otherwise, they are optional (and supplied). We are not allowed to wear cloth masks at all. So far, we have had no Covid-19 transmission.

Of course, workplace to workplace is going to vary, and sure some people are pissed off as fuck if they are having to hassle with wearing masks everyday, and being potentially exposed to the virus and others might stay at home and get paid more than if they had been working.

We have nearly perfect grounds for lots of people getting pissed off... even if they are not really victimized in any kind of specifically individual and meaningful way.

Quote from: xhomerx10 on August 01, 2020, 04:36:47 PM

Quote from: JayJuanGee on July 31, 2020, 05:28:52 PM

Quote from: cAPSLOCK on July 31, 2020, 05:19:03 PM

Quote from: JimboToronto on July 31, 2020, 05:06:28 PM

Quote from: xhomerx10 on July 31, 2020, 04:44:29 PM

The reality is that many people successful or not don't like being told what to do regardless of the consequence. I don't think there is any new Kool-Aid involved wrt the mask. Sure, the science is out; the science is out on many things which we also ignore on a daily basis without any consideration. Speeding, smoking, drinking alcohol, using drugs, unprotected sex, going to the Moon/Mars and not wearing your seat belt... Some people are more inclined to take risks than others.

I'm not going to condemn the man based on that one thing - it was his choice. Maybe his death will serve as the motivation for others who are on the fence about wearing a mask to put one on; especially those who are in the "more susceptible" categories.

It's not simply a matter of taking a risk. It's about endangering others.

Though I agree with you at the base of it, I suppose my general feelings are more in line with the idea that each person is responsible for their own choices in regards to this... everything really.

This man paid the price for his own choices. And I cannot care less about what his opinion is on masks insofar as it's effect on whether or not I wear one. That is my choice and I own the consequences.

On the other hand there is some theories that masks protect other more than the wearer. In this regard I believe locally based laws and regs are appropriate.
And if you are breaking the law by not wearing one I think that too should be something one is ready to face the consequences of.

How about the death sentence if there is sufficient proof that your failure and refusal to wear a mask had caused the death of someone else? Sound good?

We already have laws to address such situations but my country is abolitionist so the death-penalty is a non-starter. In saying that, we might have been the first country to execute a person for failing to wear a mask.
https://nationalpost.com/news/senior-haliburton-resident-who-refused-to-wear-mask-at-store-was-shot-dead-in-altercation-with-ontario-police

Maybe. Do you believe that is representative, or even some conflicts can ensure that start out of a lot of stupid-ass shit.. so, hard to say, just on the face of it, that the man was given the death penalty, even though he did end up dying.

Quote from: xhomerx10 on August 01, 2020, 04:36:47 PM

Since the onset of this virus, the goal has been to "flatten the curve" not to prevent all deaths due to Covid-19; that's certainly improbable and likely impossible unless a vaccine can be developed.

A vaccine might never be developed.. so I would think that some measures should be taken.

Quote from: xhomerx10 on August 01, 2020, 04:36:47 PM

As we have already seen, some areas have opened up only to have to reinstate lockdowns.

Sure. again a lack of targeting.

Quote from: xhomerx10 on August 01, 2020, 04:36:47 PM

The mask is only on small part of the answer; it's not even necessary for absolutely everyone to wear a mask to accomplish the goal of reducing the curve.

fair enough.

Quote from: xhomerx10 on August 01, 2020, 04:36:47 PM

To be honest, I'm more upset about the fact that our supermarkets have stopped having a dedicated employee cleaning the shopping carts as they are returned than seeing the odd person come to the store with his shirt pulled up over his mouth because the security guard at the front door says he needs to wear a mask.

Yes. Virus is more likely to be spread when there is lack of consistencies and lacking of adequate precautions. Virus does not seem to be going away anytime soon in part based on a lot of misinformation, disinformation and a variety of lackenings of adequate precautions.. and even sometimes even purposeful refusal to take any precautions.

Quote from: xhomerx10 on August 01, 2020, 04:36:47 PM

Sadly, mask rage is a thing.

Probably there are going to be rages no matter what, and even lack of consistency can cause rages, too.

Quote from: xhomerx10 on August 01, 2020, 04:36:47 PM

Pinpointing the super-spreaders and shutting them down (preferably using non-lethal methods) might be the best way to stop the spread of Covid-19.

Give me a hug, xhomer... you big fluffy pussy cat. Wink

We made it through the whole thing. #nohomo.

Quote from: JSRAW on August 01, 2020, 04:58:06 PM

homer going full JJG Roll Eyes

Exactly.

He's trying to displace me. That fuck. Cry

Uncle!

#nohomo