Quote from: philipma1957 on Today at 12:21:05 AM

Quote from: JayJuanGee on August 24, 2020, 07:00:45 PM

Quote from: AlcoHoDL on August 24, 2020, 06:08:43 PM

About spending some of your corn now...

The only two things I've bought with my corn are my Trezor (soon to become the most expensive h/w wallet in the world -- excluding the coins in it), and a site subscription (fortunately only paid once).

Whenever I think of spending some of my corn, I think of Laszlo's pizza story...at which point I log out of my wallets and order two double pepperonis using fiat. Somehow the pizzas taste better that way...

GTCTTWW.

HoDL.

But does your spending really count, AlcoHoDL?

I bet that you really spent and replaced... those lilly corns, AmiNOTkoreck?

I am thinking further.. not specifically about you, AlcoHoDL, but maybe none of us really ever arrives at any kind of perfect "fuck you" status?

We are all just fuck you status wannabes?

Cheesy

I might be exaggerating a bit because even if none of us would reach a kind of dictator of an island status, but there are graduation of options within fuck you status, too.

Remember mindrust said something like, "who needs to be rich anyhow, these days?" The world is fucked with a virus and multiple travel and consumption restrictions, so where you going to spend all of that "on paper" wealth? In other words, to some extent mindrust was proclaiming that there might not be any value in being wealthy.

Ok.. we do not need to go that far (such as mindrust) in our thinking to realize that wealth is still going to give more options than if NOT having wealth, right?

Don't get me wrong, because I am also NOT suggesting that guys have to reach some extremely exorbitant level of wealth before they can either pull a kind of fuck you lever or to proclaim that they are in a kind of fuck you status, even if they choose to continue to work (hopefully as something that they really want to do rather than have to do).

Let's say that a guy is not really going to feel comfortable with achieving fuck you status until the value of all of his potentially income producing assets (or quasi-liquid) assets are securely in thee $2million of total value region (for a presumably $6,667 per month passive income). Of course, he could diversify out of corn.. or he can keep a decent chunk in corn, but try to consider what the BTC bottom might be?

Recently, haven't we had been using the 200 week moving average as a kind of bottom for the BTC price, which would be around $6,500, currently.

So, yeah if $2million is your fuck you status level, you better have 307.7 BTC or the equivalent of that in BTC and other assets (considering what the bottoms of those other assets might be, too). A question might be whether $2 million is really the necessary minimum or would such fuck you status wannabe peep be able to be o.k. with $1 million.. which yeah, is half the quantity of expected passive income of $3,333 rather than $6,667 per month.

We should be capable of figuring out these kinds of things for our lil selfies, including having a financial/psychological cushion that is NOT too unreasonable that will still allow us to pull the "fuck you" lever at a time in our lives that we should be able to still enjoy it while trying to appreciate what real world factors we are dealing with, including known, unknowns and unknown unknowns.

Okay if two million in btc is f u status you need three million not 2. if you cash the 3 and pay tax ending up with 2 million in cash gives me 33 years at 6666.66 a month.

I will concede Philip that there could be several ways of getting at both $2million as the starting out presumption principle, and also $6,666.67 per month as the projected income from that amount. Sometimes I write about this "fuck you" status so frequently in this thread and then in other places, and then I do not always show my work very well.

Of course, I am probably no saint, either because it's not like I had the "fuck you" status formula sorted out in my head from the start; I kind of adapted such fuck you status formula, to some extent based on writing it down a few times and also from some of the feedback that guys were giving about what I had previously written.

I will concede that your formula might work too, but surely I can see that you are using different presumptions in order to get at the $6,666.67 income from accumulating such $2million principle (and you end up adjusting it to $3million.. all fair in love and war, but surely a differing set of assumptions and I don't even believe that some of your assumptions are very practical when I really look them over).

In any event, let me try to explain some of the presumptions underlying terms of my formula.

First, with the actual $2 million as the target. I recognize that there are guys with higher and lower standards of living needs and I just thought that $2 million would be a great reasonable compromise position that guys can work with. Some guys have suggested that they need way more (like $10 million or $40 million or some bullshit like that), and sometimes I just want stick with more basics and even appreciate how much power comes, even from a mere $2 million in principle because actual passive income tends to be a very real powerful thing.

Think about it. With passive income, we do not have to do shit (except maybe just keep track of our accounts), and we have a passive income coming in of $6,666.67 per month.

Of course, on the other side of the goal of the $2 million principle amount, there were guys who were saying that they were not aspiring to that much because NOT only their needs were NOT very high or that they were living in an area of the world in which the cost of living was quite humble. Even $500k was put out there as a kind of reasonable target for some guys to reach fuck you status - and surely, I am not going quibble exactly if guys can really be comfortable in their own skin with a mere $1,666.67 per month of passive income, and I surely know a quite a few people (even in the USA) who live off of way smaller amounts than $1,666.67 per month.

So, of course the target amount of the principle can be adjusted based on a variety of considerations, including if some guys might be old as fuck already, and if they do not already have something close to $500k as their principle, they do not have a lot of time to work towards building the amount that they can aspire to have, so they likely have to work with the amount that they have rather than expecting that amount to go shooting up all of a sudden under some kind of miracle projections... because even though we get all kinds of get-rich-quick stories in the crypto space, one of the ways to actually lose your principle is to end up buying into some of those get-rich-quick schemes rather than working with what you got and trying to preserve it, build it reasonably and even count your blessings for any kind of price appreciation that you are able to achieve (and can lock-in) that is greater than your previously hopefully modestly designed principle building trajectory.

Second:how to calculate passive income from $2 million principle
I am using a relatively conservative traditional 4% formula for the presumptions that if you are putting your capital to work in a variety of ways, you should be able to maintain the value of the capital by withdrawing about 4% per year in perpetuity because you are able to find ways to earn at least that amount of 4% per year on the principle that you have.

Don't get me wrong in regards to bitcoin. With bitcoin, you do not need to put your bitcoins anywhere except for in your own private wallet in order to anticipate that they are going to appreciate on the value of your BTC on average 4% per year. In other words, you do not need to increase the size of your BTC stash by 4% per year in order for your BTC stash to become worth at least 4% more in value per year (remember that bitcoin is designed to pump forever, and we have already witnessed way greater than 4% per year gains on our bitcoin, so the presumptions of continued 4% per year gains in value seem decently conservative),

In other words, I am presuming that you can comfortably withdraw 4% per year from your bitcoin stash, and your bitcoins on average are going to price appreciate at least an average of 4% per year.

So with $6,666.67 per month, I am not even talking about getting into withdrawing principle. $2 million * 4% = $80k / 12 = $6666.67 per month.

Now if you are not in bitcoin, and you are in other assets besides bitcoin, you may need to put those other assets to work in order to ensure that they are earning on average of at least 4% per year, and there is nothing wrong with having other assets, even if their market performance is likely going to vary from one another to some degree.

Also, my earlier response already accounted for the need to be pricing your assets at their potential extreme bottoms in order to maintain the bottom of whatever you our fuck you status happens to be, even though when you incrementally cash out (or make withdrawals from your accounts), whether bi-weekly, monthly, quarterly bi-annually, annually or some other increment, you are going to be cashing out value at the then current price of the various assets that are put to work in differing ways.

If you have all of your assets in cash, then cash is likely not working for you, and in the coming years might be working against you in terms of value appreciation. There are few asset managers who are going to be suggesting to keep all your assets in cash or to NOT have them working, unless you are almost dead and they are cashing out quickly, including cashing out principle too or some other shorter term horizon to extract all of the value from the portfolio of assets.

Let's say for example, you have the 307.7 BTC that I had already suggested from my earlier post to be today's minimum $2 million value (based on the $6,500 BTC bottom price $2million/$6,500=307.7BTC), and you feeling that you want to be in fuck you status merely because you have reached your BTC accumulation goal, and why not start now, especially since a 4% withdrawal rate is presumed to be sustainable forever anyhow, and if your fuck you status goal has been reached, then there should be no better time than the present to start fuck you status living, right?

Anyhow, you decide to start implementing your cashing out plan immediately, so maybe you want to cash out half a year's allocation... just to have some float because you do not really know where the BTC price is going to go in the next 6 months, so you could decide to cash out $6,666 per month x 6 = $40k (3.42 BTC) (current price $11,700) or you could cash out 2%, which would be 6.154 BTC, which would be currently about $72k.

So, sure there is a decently large difference in terms of how much you would like to cash out, and some discretion in terms of how much you cash out at any given time, which might put you in more difficult times at the next time that you decide to cash out some more income from your BTC stash. So you would be in a different place if BTC prices were at $17,250 in 6 months or maybe BTC prices go down to the projected bottom around $6,500, and you can decide if you are going to cash out an additional 2% of your remaining BTC stash for the year, and your total stash would be somewhere between 301.546 BTC and 304.28 BTC depending upon which option you had exercised in the withdrawal from 6 months earlier in the year.

Of course, in some ways, you could make the whole matter simpler in terms of your not having to worry about the BTC price if you just cash out every month at .33% * 307.7 BTC (currently $11,880 = 1.01541 BTC) or every two weeks at .167% * 307.7 BTC (currently $6,012 = .513859 BTC). Simpler in terms of not calculating BTC price might be easier than the accounting that might come from more frequent BTC cashenings.

Another alternative would be to just cash out $3,333 per two weeks or $6667 per month and don't worry about the BTC price, unless the price happens to go below the $6,500 theoretical bottom that puts your capital at the $2 million fuck you status... if you have changes in your principle and your bottom price presumptions, then you might have to titrate down the amounts of your withdrawals until the BTC price goes up or some other ways to get you back into your target "fuck you" status.

Also, as you continue to withdraw BTC from your stash, then of course, you may have to monitor its value from time to time to make sure that it's value does not go outside of your parameters, and there can be advantages and disadvantages of holding a variety of assets, rather than just BTC... which most wealthy people do not have their assets all tied into one category, but surely there are some who do do that, and have a large wealth cushion, too.

Quote from: philipma1957 on Today at 12:21:05 AM

Now if I did all of the above and btc goes to 50k a coin I would never be happy I cashed in the three million in coin or about 290 coins.

Well, if you decide to completely diversify out of bitcoin into cash, then that would be something that I would not be recommending, and I doubt that there are very many folks who manage their portfolios by diversifying into cash unless they are planning to die soon or to completely liquidate their principle but sure some people are going to feel better to go to a passive income status based on their value held in fiat rather than having it either in bitcoin or some combination of assets.

Quote from: philipma1957 on Today at 12:21:05 AM

If I was looking to cash 290 coins. I would need at least 210 more to hodl.

Now the numbers above mean I need 500 coins .

Your formulas are seeming unrealistic, but I suppose if you are going to go totally to cash then maybe you would need way more BTC in order to feel comfortable converting it all over to cash? I am not suggesting to do anything like that, and so guys can be their own worst enemy sometimes, but hey people are going to calculate value and what risks that they feel comfortable with in a variety of ways.

I had gotten out of my attachment to getting into fiat quite a while back, but I understand the inclination to want to get into fiat.. it is likely a real concern that people have when they are calculating what to do and how much they believe that they need to accomplish their various financial and psychological comfort level objectives.

Quote from: philipma1957 on Today at 12:21:05 AM

I am 63 if you are younger add 9 coins for each year you are younger.

I e

63 you need 500. cash 290
62 you need 509. cash 295
61 you need 518 cash 300

most people here dont have that much coin.

I really do not believe that you need that many coin, especially if $2 million principle is your goal, and like I mentioned, if you are calculating a BTC price bottom as currently in the $6,500 arena (the current 200 week moving average), then that is 307.7 BTC, currently.

I believe that it would be completely silly to cash them into fiat right away, and if you start to live off of 4% per year, then you can start right now when your money is working for you, and of course, we should be able to presume a 4% per year return from bitcoin.. I think that a 4% per year return from bitcoin on average is reasonable and it is even conservative (and remember the calculating of the 4% per year should merely be the moving up of the bottom which is currently at about $6,500 - and we also know that the current BTC spot price moves all over the place in the short term, but the spot price is not the one that we monitor for the withdrawing of the 4% per year.. so long as we are above the bottom price, presumably going up 4% per year, too).

Whether you are 63 years old, 40 years old or 75 years old, you can still make the same presumptions. Of course, the younger you are, the more that you want to make sure that your presumptions are solid and that they are playing out because you do not want to be digging into your principle if you are younger. When you get older, there is likely less risk to actually starting to dig into your principle because you are likely anticipating digging into your principle, at some point anyhow... but the 4% per year is a young man's game and should be a perpetually sustainable game, once you start it so long as all of your underlying presumptions are correct.

Anyhow, cashing out at 4% per year could be measured as 1% per quarter or .33% per month, .167% every 2 weeks.. or some other timeline equivalent measurement that is comfortable for you.

Hopefully, I clarified what I was trying to say rather than making matters more complicated.