Quote from: Gyfts on November 25, 2020, 03:16:20 AM

Quote from: TwitchySeal on November 25, 2020, 12:55:57 AM

That IG report determined that the investigation was not started because of the Steele Dossier. It was Papadapolous bragging to an Australian intelligence agent that the Trump campaign knew that Russia had dirt on Clinton and would be using it (Trump campaign should have went to the FBI themselves at that point). In fact, when they became aware of the Steele dossier, the investigation was already under way, and Comey went personally to Trump Tower to tell Trump about it's existence.

Also, Carter Page was already under FBI investigation (like Paul Manafort) before the Trump campaign even existed.

FISA warrants were used to surveille Carter Page, and the basis of these FISA warrants was the Steele Dossier which were renewed multiple times. It doesn't matter if Page was under previous investigation. Doesn't mean you can surveille him and use oppo research that's Russian propaganda as the basis for the warrant.

Quote from: TwitchySeal on November 25, 2020, 12:55:57 AM

Mueller uncovered exactly who did it and how - from the fake identities used to buy servers to the bitcoin transactions used to pay for them to the relationship between wikileaks and Russia. The details Mueller was able to figure out are impressive, all while being obstructed at every turn by the President of the United States. And that's only based on what's public.

The President of a Country obstructing an investigation into a foreign adversary interfering in the election that he had just won. Think about that for a second.

I've got a bridge to sell you if you actually believe the laundry list of names was the extent of "Russian interference" or even the basis for Russian interference. Mueller compiled those names knowing he'd never get a conviction and knowing there would never be any sort of trial so he could point towards his list as if it justified his work and 30M of tax payer money. Russian interference in U.S. elections has been going on for decades according to ex-intel official James Clapper -- why would the U.S. wait to prosecute any entities involved and wait until the 2016 election? Especially if its been going on for decades?

Lot of talk about Russians interfering in the 2018 mid term elections. Why did democrats not call for a special prosecutor to investigate that? Well, other than the fact they won in 2018, but that's besides the point.

Russia presumably interfered in the 2020 election. Where are the names of those involved? Don't democrats care so much about Russian interference? Do you think Biden will call for his DoJ to investigate?

I'm glad obstruction is what you got from the Mueller report because what I got from the report is not a single person was indicted for Russian collusion/conspiracy/coordination. 3 years chasing a Russian collusion narrative only to turn up nothing and somehow you are surprised Trump wanted Mueller fired or that he resisted his investigation? Also, Trump had the authority to fire Mueller and did not do so. Quite the obstructionist.

I mean, if I had a couple of FBI goons investigating me texting each other about some insurance policy if I had won a Presidential election, I would be suspect too - https://www.wsj.com/articles/in-fbi-agents-account-insurance-policy-text-referred-to-russia-probe-1513624580

But I guess you still believe there was no political animus involved in the investigation so I'm not sure what else would convince you.

I agree with parts of this.

One of my big issues with the whole Russia thing is that I think a lot of people misunderstand it. Some people actually think that Russia was able to hack into voter booths and change your votes or something along those lines, that's what 'Russian Interference' sounds like, as it's a big word with a lot behind it in peoples heads.

The thing is that it isn't that deep: Literally Russian interference is just the Russian government creating divide in the US by spending money on ads supporting particular candidates, running fake accounts online, and so on and so forth. Isn't that something that literally anyone could do? I understand the inherent difference because the people doing it this time around are the Kremlin, but still.

But I do also agree with the points about 2018 and 2020 -- What was so different then that Russia was unable to change the outcome of the election? If Republicans would have won would things have ended up being different in regards to calls for another investigation or would talks of that died down again?