Quote from: AnonyMint on March 07, 2014, 02:14:42 AM

we can't top-down provide an environment

I agree.

Quote from: AnonyMint on March 07, 2014, 02:14:42 AM

rather we push on the environment and see how it anneals (this is effectively what government does, although it may wish it was actually setting the environment).

I agree.

Quote from: AnonyMint on March 07, 2014, 02:14:42 AM

If your assertion were true that we can top-down create an environment..

You are mistaken. I have not made such assertion.

Quote from: AnonyMint on March 07, 2014, 02:14:42 AM

You claim there is no order, but then why did evolution give females an accelerated fertility curve as compared to males, which has numerous serious ramifications. Why did evolution give women a different strategy for hypergamy and short-term time preference. Because this strategy was the most optimally fit for the survival of the human race.

My claim was against your premise of a natural order of races. You keep on bringing up the sex issue when it's in no way relevant to discussion about races. You might be surprised to hear we are in no disagreement on the natural differences of man and woman. Our biological bodies are still operating the same way, from the same instincts they did as hunter-gatherers in the wilderness. And that environment is, by the very biology of our bodies, the natural environment of our species where natural order took place.

Quote from: AnonyMint on March 07, 2014, 02:14:42 AM

What I am saying is that it is fine-grained, bottom-up competition is an order in itself.

The underlined sentence above is what my entire argument is based on. There is no natural order to races because in the natural environment it was impossible for different races to even meet each other, let alone compete to form an order!

Quote from: AnonyMint on March 07, 2014, 02:14:42 AM

The government wants to ... but this is just pushing on the natural order in the environment and the environment annealed by producing a failed society with insufficient youth to support the elderly and a $150 trillion global debt bomb that will soon explode and then we go back to the natural order again.

I agree that modern society is a failure, but I'm not as set on how we got here and disagree on the outcome. Whenever this bubble bursts it's highly unlikely we will end up with anything close to natural order. People will still be plagued by the same beliefs (or as afaik D.E. says, learned lies) they had before the collapse. And when a new society emerges, perhaps some things will be learnt, but for generations the new society will carry along the shadow of the one before it.

Quote from: AnonyMint on March 07, 2014, 02:14:42 AM

Quote from: Meizirkki on March 06, 2014, 09:08:47 PM

Not only do I disagree on the existence of any definitive order, but I also think it's a very dangerous premise to build an ideology on. It will be used as an excuse for discrimination or something much worse.

Your irrational emotions aside, the mathematical facts are irrefutable.

My emotions behind that concern are not irrational at all. As I argued above, races were never put into an order by nature. Every racial order to have ever existed have been synthetic and so will every racial order in the future be. Your premise of the racial order and your scenario about the collapse of society are your own political beliefs, not facts given to you by math and science.