Quote from: error on October 07, 2011, 05:29:15 PM

Quote from: ctoon6 on October 05, 2011, 11:19:13 PM

Quote from: MSJHWT on October 05, 2011, 09:19:15 PM

Quote from: ctoon6 on October 05, 2011, 08:05:04 PM

yet another reason why we need a new system that punishes people that hoard.

i firmly believe that you should not be able to make money simply by having money, it just does not make sense to me. and others think the same, the Christians thought it was usury and the Islam people do too. i think it is a broken system, and needs to be stopped inside the currency its self. although i don't know how loaning would work. but i always go by the principal of save instead of get credit for it. for a rough example

take a 165k house for 360 months loan or 30 years at 7% interest. you would pay about 1100 a month. however if you took that 1100 a month and stashed it away every month for 150 months, you could buy that house right up front, and not give any money to the banks.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_banking
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usury

Calls out people for hoarding bitcoins, then suggests people hoard fiat currency....

Also, have a look at the Time Value of Money as to why interest rates are charged (What else could a bank/individual be doing with that money if they didn't loan it to you and what kind of return could they be getting investing in a business, making widgets, etc.) As a person or bank, why would I loan you money on the hope that I someday get back only the amount I loaned you? One of the complaints of our economy currently is small businesses can't get loans to raise inventory, invest in PP+E, etc, why would you take away the ability for all of these people to get loans? Loans, interest and debt are not bad things if used correctly and are a necessary tool of business.
Interest has been around since the earliest ideas of money and even in most usury systems it was only frowned upon to charge interest to members of the same ethnic group you belonged to, and in Islamic laws instead of charging interest they engage in profit sharing, joint ventures and cost plus...a rose by any other name.....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_value_of_money/

Also, in your example that's 12.5 years of savings to get a house assuming that in your system there is no interest to be had by saving that amount of money. So now they've had to wait for 12.5 years before buying the house (where did they live for those 12.5 years and did it cost them anything?) and even though interest might not exist in your system, would the home value have appreciated even slightly?

you make some very valid points. but if the small businesses cant get loans now, why would it matter anyway?

and in my example, the numbers were high for a first time home buyer. first time home buyers would not need a 165k house. you could live at home with your parents, or a cheap apartment. if you cant afford to save for the house, you cant afford it anyway.

and i do agree that some loans are beneficial. but if it will take you more than 2x the money and time to pay it back, i see it difficult to justify.

another example

you net 50000 a year yourself
the max you really should spend on housing is 30% i do believe.
30% of 50000 is 15000 or 1250 a month.
in my area you can easily get an apartment in a good area for 1000 a month, or even 700 and be "living fat".
if you don't squander the rest of your income you should have 750-1000 a month to save for a house, spending no more than around 1700-2000 a month on any housing

once you figure in housing you pay for while saving, sure its a worse situation, but its definitely doable.

You missed the point.

The point is, you're saying that people who save money should be punished, and then describing scenarios where someone might save money as a good thing. You seem to be terribly confused.

its bad when you hold like 10% of an entire currency when you obtained it for literally pennies on the dollar, probably way less

and that fact alone, among many others is why i would never invest any real sums money into bitcoin.