Quote from: ErisDiscordia on March 10, 2014, 04:20:06 PM

Quote from: octaft on March 10, 2014, 01:58:50 PM

Yeah, let's build them! Let's take your knowledge of building roads, my knowledge of building roads, and combined, I'm willing to bet that we'll have a total of zero knowledge of how to build roads. Since we can't do it, someone will have to. But that someone is going to want to be paid for their investment/hard work, so you'll probably have to pay tolls every few miles. Oh, wait, some people can't afford those tolls. Those people better stay home or get ready to walk it, because they're fucked.

So who builds the roads now? The government? No. It just pays for them. It hires private companies to build them (in most cases. Sometimes they will have their own national road building company) So how is that working out for us? Is it the most efficient way available? Is it the most fair? I would doubt it. Just because the government has been the sole provider of something during your whole life doesn't mean it is impossible to provide in different (and better) ways. What about progress?

Quote from: NotLambchop on March 10, 2014, 02:10:33 PM

Quote from: ErisDiscordia on March 10, 2014, 01:07:46 PM

...I am convinced that decentralized/voluntary/anarchistic forms of societal organization are far superior to centralized forms in terms of their efficiency...

This is not, nor has it been in recent history, a reality. The fact that such arrangements have never persisted is, in itself, proof of their implausibility. A world where there is no crime, for instance, is superior to a world where crime exists. But such an ideal is as implausible as the utopian volunteerism you describe.

I am willing to concede that during the majority of history this might have indeed been an impossibility due to barriers to efficient communication. Now that the internet and associated technologies are ubiquitous I feel we need to have this discussion again. The need for empire to hold society together might be far greater in a world where information travels no faster than a horses gallop, than in one where information can propagate at the speed of light globally.

Just because something hasn't been done so far with the technological and cultural level of development we had so far, does not mean that i can not be done. I hope this is clear.

I would be glad to see people, who are *sure* that a society based on voluntary cooperation and decentralization can't work just stay with the old models they feel comfortable with and let the Neophiles try the new, weird, far-out stuff. If you're sure it can't work, just let them learn their lesson the hard way, will you? And if, by any chance, they might succeed in creating communities which are more free on an individual level, more efficient in their use of resources or otherwise desirable, that's a great thing, isn't it? Wouldn't they be happy about that? They would now have more choices than to "move to a different piece of land managed by a slightly different type of government".

I repeat: let's build that shit. If you pay attention, you can see the first green shoots appearing. Think of Seans Outpost or the Dogecoiners who sent Jamaicas bobsled team to the olympics. Crypto gives us the tools, now we need to use them. Help us, or move out of the way, please!

The bitcoin corporate miners have centralized a decentralized experiment. That's how life rolls. Move on.