Quote from: DaveF on October 16, 2021, 05:20:52 PM

Possibly, the 500 per citizen assumes that everyone uses the same amount. I can't speak for Germany, and for some reason can't find the numbers, but I would *think* (note think, don't know, can't find) that Germany like most industrialized countries heavy industry and commercial industry in general uses more energy then homes. At a guess, VW, Daimler, BMW, Airbus probably are using more energy then most towns. Could be wrong on that, just going by what I know in the US.

The cost does get passed along, but it's not a 1:1 ratio.

It's about one-quarter of the total energy consumed, but overall at the end of the bill, it doesn't matter because if VW for example pays also a greentax the cost will be in the finished product. If a restaurant pays 10% more on electricity that cost will be seen in the menu. It's not that somehow that money paid by companies or businesses will come out of some hidden pocket, at the end of the line it will still be reflected in ours, even if the company takes it out of their profits that will impact on the money shareholders get so it will still be there.

But even if we divide that by 4 to 9 billion, it still comes at 180E per household per year, still you're paying in subsidies 50% of what the bill would look like in a normal country. And it's not a matter of purchasing power either as one could claim, why is the price per kwh in the Netlends half of that in Germany?

Quote from: DaveF on October 16, 2021, 05:20:52 PM

Opinion: This is why the there is so much arguing going on. It's not black and white. It's one big pool of grey. Kind of like the title of this post itself. Would it have the same impact if instead of 'Fuel prices hitting an eight year high' is was 'Fuel prices close to 70% of what they were in summer 2008'

Because the second won't happen unless we shut down the economy and I don't see an economic crisis happening because of low gas prices, because of high one...well it's here. Nor would we see people angry and cursing that they've filled their tank with 10$

Quote from: barbara44 on October 16, 2021, 09:06:44 PM

We need to go to green or not only we will be doing worse, but we will literally not have any way to stay alive neither. It is really a shame honestly and I am having a bit of a problem to understand how people could defend against green energy when there is nothing that they would profit from neither.

Let's start counting the poeple who will die of cold in their homes because they can pay for heating this winter, then let's see if somebody gives a fuck if the planet is destroyed 300 years from now when he is freezing to death with the gas and power cut because he couldn't pay for them.
Go on and tell those poeple they should pay all their money to survive the cold in order to save the planet.

Let's see if dare! Imagine having your kid freezing and crying he is cold next to you and listening to some moron on tv about how we need to put more carbon taxes or we will experience heatwaves after heatwaves.