Quote from: DapanasFruit on Today at 03:53:33 PM

I think I fully get the main point you are driving at. Imagine paying for a cup of coffee in a coffee shop and you have to wait for at least 10 minutes before you can go out because the payment has not yet been confirmed - in this scenario it could really be a big hassle.

because the altnet LN does not confirm transactions(THEY ARE UNRELAYED/OFFCHAIN). its the same risk as accepting a zero confirm transaction on bitcoin.. so why wait if all you are selling is coffee.

if you acept a zero confirm risk using LN you might as well do the same on bitcoin.

infact. if your co-partner to a hub owned by a coffee shop, whereby your just trading balance in the offchain contract. you might aswell buy a large giftcard of a coffee shop using bitcoin and then trade the giftcard balance with the retailer. its the same thing in the end.

many people including LN devs have lost value when using LN. so its not just 'noob' /operator error. its actual flaws in how LN functions.

i personally if i want coffee would just buy a starbucks giftcard using bitcoin. and not have the hassle worry or concern of altnet problems of liquidity stopping payment successes, or having bad expensive routes or having to have several 'pots' of funds locked up with different people just to try and get a better success rate of a payment.

people want a payment system that is a no fuss straight forward system that works every time. thats why bitcoin is so elegant and beautiful in its invention. these other non-blockchain offerings have more flaws and issues and require more effort than simpler methods.

the issue i have is bitcoin devs are trying more and more to restrict what bitcoin can do and trying to push people away from using bitcoin, by means of pretending bitcoin has problems and these other networks dont. when in actual fact bitcoin doesnt have problems technically. but has been purposefully restricted in its expansion to cause issues just to advertise other networks

but hey. if people were atleast honest to admit the flaws instead of saying 'if you just want to buy small things like coffee just use LN', where by making it sound like its the same/just as easy as using bitcoin. also without actually highlighting the issues that need addressing to guarantee 100% payment every time. then that is not an honest depiction of a solution to bitcoin.

especially when the "solution to bitcoin" is a work around to a problem only caused by devs personally refusing to allow bitcoin to handle the small stuff by them actually wanting to stop bitcoin from handling the small stuff. (thus not a real problem bitcoin cant solve. but a purposefully created restriction on bitcoin), done to advertise other networks as a thing people should use instead of bitcoin.

using doomads ice/steam analogy. he does not want bitcoin to be a steam engine. he wants bitcoin to be an ice hoarding cargo ship. where it keeps h2o locked up as ice and not used for months for any purpose. where people dont need to audit the ship for months.. and then transported to another vessel to be melted into steam to then use on steam engines. requiring middle men to co-manage the evaporation and freezing process at port entry and exits.

i personally prefer the 2009-2016 utility of steam powered boats(bitcoin). where they store the ice and allow it to be broken down and melted into small vapour molecules by the owner of the ice alone, his full control.. on the same ship where every litre/gallon is accounted for. where it doesnt need different vessels or middle men or having to have several ships per pair of users to ensure delivery of steam. via passing steam through several boats along a stream hoping none is lost on the way or hoping there are available boats in the stream to allow passage.

LN's payment method is not the same as bitcoins payment method. in LN even if you think a 'payment' is successful, the co-partner can still screw you over with how the final settlement is done. so its no better then just accepting a zero-confirm on the bitcoin network. atleast you only have to wait for like 10 minutes on bitcoin, and not left waiting days-months hoping the co partner doesnt screw you over while you wait out the lock for a settlement.

just remember. if its not a confirmed transaction on the blockchain. its not yet your funds. LN payments are just as much at risk as zero confirm bitcoin transactions. LN payments wont even get a chance to confirm within 10mins-hour. as they are usually locked for weeks/months, before getting a chance to unlock and confirm. plus ofcourse the co-signer can mess with the potential settlement contract which adds more risks to confirm chances.

but hey people will still say LN is "bitcoins solution" without explaining the issues