Quote from: franky1 on January 15, 2022, 10:44:49 PM

market price is not dependant on the 19mill coins in circulation(hoarded or lost)
its dependant on the small amount of those 19mill that are actually traded(on market orders, deposited in exchanges)

yep market price only changes when orders are actually filled by actually having coin on the market.

the hoarders refusing to sell are not affecting the price. because they are not selling.. they are hoarding.

But they are hoarding with the sole purpose of selling it at higher price to make a profit .. But this dynamic was studied since the beginning, bitcoin has a strong appeal to bubble, for the reaons that the price is completly flexible, that it's deflationists with less and less being mined over time, and the value is indexed on nothing. So there is always this expection that the price can increase in the future. But if it's the only reason to buy it, it cannot work in sustainable manner. The only way it can gain sustainable value is if there is a legit demand for it's utility value as a paiment system.

Quote from: franky1 on January 15, 2022, 10:44:49 PM

heres a few motto's for you:
a price does not move without a sell
for every seller is a buyer
buyers and sellers work together to make/set/change a price

yep buyers and sellers affect the price. not hoarders

its not hoarders philosophy you should interrogate. its the mindset of the day traders. and what 'value' they see as their purchase/sell limits.

once you grasp this concept then you can move one step closer to getting your answer answered about how markets and price valuations work.

so take some time to understand its the markets that are involved in the market price. and users in the market that decide on a value window by their collective emotions and limits that set the window of value for the price to speculate inbetween.

i have a nice hoard from 2012. and IF i were to put my coins into a market i can(then and only then) affect the market.
but guess what. i am not affecting the market. because i am hoarding

so try to understand the values of those who actually are on the market
i already gave you a few tip-bit examples of things you can research into in previous posts.

and i strangely know you will probably not want to seek and answer, and just want to slam insults just to enforce your pre-formed opinion.
but please just give it a try, research some options. and then you can either verify your opinion or change your opinion. just dont fear testing your opinion, with worrying that your opinion might be wrong.

But the two are completely related, hoarders only hoards because they are also traders and waiting for the good moment to sell with a profit. They don't just hoard to have a nice bunch of shiny coins on their wallet to put on their shelves as a decoration.

Quote from: franky1 on January 15, 2022, 10:44:49 PM

out of curiosity.
is your understanding of what you feel as the way markets work, based purely on your experience of commodities.
where you see any commodity in circulation, need to be sold in X days.
is that why you dont like hoarding, because its not something you experienced.

is so, the only reason no one hoards beef, milk, orange juice, coffee beans.. is simple.
those commodities have a shelf life. hoard them too long and they go rotten

this is another reason why bitcoin is not a commodity, but an asset. because it has no shelf life forcing it to be sold quick.
(other crapcoins have 'demurrage' features, where bits of coin are lost if hoarded)

but bitcoin is not trying to be a commodity. its an asset. and assets are suppose to be owned long term

Well i have experience in many area, my understanding i think is more based on how stocks as investement gainig value really work, because i learned this with people with 30 year of experience in wallet street market, from the old school of thought akin to warret buffet. It's even the question that was asked in the thread where satoshi answered, it was are bitcoin like stocks of investement, and it's not.

Commodity can also have long term value, think about furnitures, maybe cars, but the main point is that they have utility value, and their price is mostly made out of their utility value. Unlike stocks whose value is appreciated on a future potential. When you buy a stock, explicity you are buying something that doesn't yet exist and still has to be created. Hence why there is a risk in stock investement, and also why i can rise in value, eventually a lot if the thing being created out of the investement bring lot of utility value with royaltees and no competition.

Bitcoin is not a commodity maybe, but the point is that in the context of asking if it's an investement like a stock, the answer is it's more like a commodity, because it's value it's mostly derived from utility value. It's the only way it make sense.

As an "investement" the profit can only be based on unsustainable various kind of great fool games, ponzis, highly speculative bubbles and burst with a value based on nothing solid at all. The mining is the value of bitcoin. Nobody would pay for a bunch of hash. The value is derived from it's utility value as a decentralized paiment secured by pow. The pow is a mean to an end, not what the value is based on.