Quote from: BlackHatCoiner on Today at 06:18:29 PM

Quote from: franky1 on Today at 04:17:43 PM

making people not use the BITCOIN network. is not scaling the BITCOIN network.

Alas, they do use it. They use the Bitcoin network to create channels. They couldn't have Lightning if they didn't have the first layer. And the existence of the Lightning contributes to those who want to only use the first layer. The transactions which would occur on-chain by those who use Lightning, did not happen. The chain weights less!

again lightning can still function without bitcoin

people can deposit fiat into an exchange, buy an asset realise bitcoin is expensive and swap to an altcoin and then use LN.
people can have channels opened for them with 'inbound capacity' without the user needing to have bitcoin. (thor)
heck people can even have channels that are suppose to be pegged to bitcoin transactions without there even being a confirmed transaction to peg to(turbo).

so yea LN is not strictly and 100% hooked to bitcoin.
calling it a layer offers a imaginary pretense of it being a protective skin for something. but LN is not a skin of bitcoin. its a bridge , a transport bypass to exit the area

you want people to think of it as a skin of bitcoin to protect bitcoin utility and add to bitcoin utility
yet its actually a bridge between different crypto's to take people away from one to then access another

funny part is a smart PR guy could actually sell its actual view as its niche, positively. rather than just lame tagging LN as bitcoin to pretend its made for and is for bitcoin and helps bitcoin.

taking utility away, yea it does decrease the weight. but thats not scaling the weight, thats removing the weight. meaning getting rid of transactions, removal, exodus, exit.

users buying their coffee with lightning apps on cell phones are not protecting bitcoin, monitoring bitcoin, helping bitcoin. its doing something else away from bitcoin where users never touch the bitcoin network. yep LN's niche of cellphone apps for people to buy coffee (not home nodes offering services) is where users never touch bitcoin. and when its time to move on from LN decide to exchange to a altcoin like litecoin to then move to an exchange to change to fiat,