Quote from: franky1 on February 09, 2022, 02:05:29 PM

Quote from: Antithesis on February 09, 2022, 11:05:42 AM

I am getting services from a guy that has loan. He provides me services, I pay him in bank notes and he uses them for his loan repayments. That's the purpose of fiat currency system: investing in debt ownership and getting stuff from the borrowers so they can settle their monetary debt to the banks and non-monerary debt to fiat currency holders. So, there's no need for new investors to enter into the system. The borrowers, the banks and the holders are the only three necessary party for the system operation. In bitcoin, without new investors the operation of the system boils down to an infinite loop of nonsensical activity where miners are spending a ton of electricity to maintain a network where people send each other numbers.

um no
you are not getting any bonus. deal, freebie, extra, or service.. you are PAYING someone. no matter what the currency is no matter if the the person selling you a service took out a loan or not. the service you are buying is the same, whether the service provider had a loan or not. you buying a service has nothing to do with loans

Quote from: Antithesis on February 09, 2022, 11:05:42 AM

That's the purpose of fiat currency system: investing in debt ownership and getting stuff from the borrowers so they can settle their monetary debt to the banks and non-monerary debt to fiat currency holders.

if you think people only work to pay off loans. where all employment and services are to cater to debt. then guess what. i am afraid to tell you that there are many many people that do not even take out loans. the reason they work or offer services has nothing to do with loans.
also those getting loans are not giving someone on demand a free service.

loans do not give bank notes value.

a person taking a loan out, is getting money created from nothing but the loan might buy them 100% of goods. if they spend it that day. but then they have to work 140% over time to repay the bank(including tax(20%) and interest(X%/year for X years))
so his 100% spend on day one costs him 140% later.. thus that 100% on day one is worth less value due to later cost, compared to if he just worked and saved up to get 100% without a loan.

loans cause inflation meaning if you wanted your lawn cut by a debtless gardener and a indebted gardener. the indebted gardener would charge you 140% as oppose to 100%. so a loan doesnt give you something. it actually costs you more. meaning you lose something.
if you offerd both gardeners $10. the one without debt will cut your grass for 1 hour. where as the indebt gardener would cut it for 43 minutes and want another $4 if you want a full hours gardening done for you.

also you as a separate person that is not part of a loan contract gets nothing from the loan when you hold a bank note.
and over tine because of inflation the value of your bank note depreciates too(you can buy 4 loaves of bread today but 3 loaves if you held onto the bank note untill 2030)

for the multitude of times. YOU DONT and YOU ARE NOT "getting stuff from a borrower"
there is no contract between a person getting a loan and you as a bank note holder
there is no benefit, freebie, something you get from someone else having a loan

It seems that you are so obsessed with bitcoin that you deny basic reality. Fiat money has purpose of settling debt to the banks given that all fiat is someone's loan. All paper fiat is debt owed to central banks by the commercial banks All digital fiat is debt owed to commercial banks by individuals and companies. In the same time, all paper fiat is debt owed to holders by the central banks. And all digital fiat is debt owed to holders by commercial banks. If you don't believe me, check the accounting books of the commercial and central banks. So, fiat holders are debt owners. Their ownership is valuable because it has the ability to redeem the debt of the banks, individuals and corporations. You don't need new investors to bring it the value to the holders. They already own value. In bitcoin system, without new investors all you have is numbers and an enormous spending of electricity to maintain the system where all people can do is send each other these numbers. So, stop denying reality and spread misinformation.