Quote from: LTU_btc on April 06, 2022, 07:56:09 PM

[...] You can call 2014 coup organized by CIA, but I approve that Ukrainians wanted to get rid of president who worked in interest of Russia and not his own country.
I approve that independent country can decide themselves what organisation they want to join. Especially when they such neighbour like Russia. [...]

If Ukraine is an independent country, then why Joe Biden, by using financial intimidation, dictated to Ukraine which Prosecutor General should be there?

Quote from: LTU_btc on April 06, 2022, 07:56:09 PM

And I'm not sure why there is so much talk about Ukraine joining NATO when there is no sign that they would be accepted anytine soon. They weren't accepted in 2008, after 2014 it become even more unlikely.

You can read the speech of the Secretary General of NATO dated January 10, 2022, about Ukraine was being prepared for join to the alliance.

Code:

On membership.
We have reiterated the decision we made at the Bucharest Summit in 2008 and we stand by that decision.
We help Ukraine to move towards a NATO membership by implementing reforms, by meeting NATO standards.
And we have stated very clearly that we will never compromise on the right for every nation in Europe to choose its own path,
including what kind of security arrangements it wants to be a part of. And therefore, it is fundamental that that principle is not violated in any way.
Meaning that it is for Ukraine and the 30 NATO Allies to decide when Ukraine is ready for membership. No one else has any right to say anything about that.

When NATO refused Russia's demand to provide guarantees that Ukraine would never join the alliance, Russian Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs, Aleksandr Grushko warned:

Code:

We told NATO honestly that further deterioration in relations poses serious risks.
If NATO moves to a policy of containment, we will move to a policy of counter-containment.
If there is deterrence, there will be counter-deterrence. Attempts to build security without Russia’s involvement are counterproductive.
For us an end to NATO’s open-door policy and legal guarantees that the alliance won’t expand further eastward are absolutely imperative.
NATO expansion creates unacceptable risks for us, which we will resist.
The argument that no one else can determine NATO’s policies towards its members is unfounded.
We don’t rule out the possibility of restoring our diplomatic mission to the alliance.
The Ukrainian authorities need to be forced to comply with the Minsk agreements — then de-escalation will be possible.
NATO must stop all military aid to Kyiv.

Though Ukraine is not an official member of alliance, but according to the NATO Secretary General, their block have trained tens of thousands of Ukrainian troops who are now at war with Russia, NATO supplies Ukraine with various types of weapons. I suppose no one will dispute the fact that the alliance forces are taking part in this military conflict on the side of Ukraine. Although the alliance doesn't want to enter into a direct confrontation with Russia, what is happening now is more like NATO fights against Russia to the last Ukrainian.

Quote from: DaRude on April 06, 2022, 09:33:21 AM

So far civilian deaths are relatively low for the war this size.

Even taking into account military actions, I believe that in the civilized world it is unacceptable to talk about "low deaths" among civilians. Need to constantly keep in mind that these are not just numbers but human pain, injuries and broken destinies.