to TwitchySeal

Quote from: TwitchySeal on May 21, 2022, 09:59:39 PM

Yoohoo, Putin isn't invading Ukraine because of Nazis. The whole Nazi thing is just an excuse.

"Just an excuse", you say?
Here are the fighters from the Azov Battalion who have been carrying out punitive operations against the population of Mariupol since 2014.
During the surrender, they undressed and showed to the camera their tattoos with images of Adolf Hitler, his quotes and the SS symbols.

Video: https://t.me/milchronicles/533
Adolf Hitler's quote on the tattoo

Code:

In Ukrainian: "В неї немає початку, немає кінця. Війна – це саме життя. Війна – це відправна точка".
Translation: "It has no beginning, no end. War is life itself. War is the starting point".

The problem is that Azov is not the only military battalion in Ukraine that terrorizes the peaceful Ukrainian population. There are even less known, but no less dangerous, such as Aidar, Donbas, Dnepr-1 and others.

Quote from: TwitchySeal on May 21, 2022, 09:59:39 PM

Think about it, Putin is an Ethno Nationalist and a fascist. Why would he have a problem with Nazis? He doesn't. He's just calling Ukrainians Nazis to get all the boomers and Russians that want it to be true so bad they are blinded to support him.

You are mistaken that in Russia all Ukrainians are considered Nazis. Russophobia began to spread across Ukraine after the Orange Revolution in the 2000s. Prior to this, the Nazis in Ukraine could simply be driven out of the square just for trying to hold a meeting. But then in Ukraine, at the state level, they began to glorify Stepan Bandera and hold torchlight processions in his honor with the permission of the Ukrainian authorities, and ultra-right groups received powerful political and financial support. People in Ukraine began to be afraid to openly express their negative attitude towards Bandera and the OUN-UPA. After the anti-constitutional coup in 2014, Ukraine began to ban the teaching of the Russian language in schools and serve people in stores in Russian. This is taking into account the fact that for millions of citizens of Ukraine, the Russian language is native from birth. Imagine, if, for example, in Belgium they began to rapidly infringe on French-speaking citizens, then in your opinion this would not aggravate the situation in the country, and how would neighboring France and the entire European community react then? Wouldn't anyone condemn such actions?

Quote from: TwitchySeal on May 22, 2022, 12:30:50 AM

A few months ago we all thought we'd be waking up to news of Zelensky dead and Kyiev occupied by Russian forces. At the time, Russian failure and retreat within a few weeks seemed much less likely than Ukraine ultimately regaining some of it's land that was seized in 2014 today.

I tell you, this is a dangerous illusion, mainly for ordinary Ukrainian soldiers, who are now being used as cannon fodder and they immediately understand how things are when they find themselves under the onslaught of Russian artillery, tanks and aircraft without a normal ability to resist. The trouble is that they understand this too late (here are their appeals, some of which I have already published earlier in my posts: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5).

to paxmao

Quote from: paxmao on May 21, 2022, 10:56:30 PM

On top of it, on the ridiculous attempt to make it look like if US were giving any credibility to the "nazi-terrorist" arguments

Did you deliberately ignore the part that Azov was recognized by the US Congress as a neo-Nazi group and forbade supplying them with weapons?
Now major Western media resources are hushing up the connection between Azov and the 18-year-old Nazi shooter from Buffalo, who wore the Black Sun symbol on his chest - the same one that is placed on the flag of the Azov battalion and on the patch of the Ukrainian pilot. In his manifesto, this guy wrote that he was inspired by a Dutch terrorist who was trained in the Azov Battalion.

Quote from: paxmao on May 21, 2022, 09:30:40 PM

The Nazi argument is irrelevant to the war, Putin could not care less about the ideology of the people that he kills and this discussion is only for the internal propaganda market and to cover up an unjustified war of invasion and aggression.

Too many events preceded this invasion to call it as you do it. Briefly, in 2014, an unconstitutional coup took place in Ukraine, forcibly removing President Yanukovych. Then one million people in Kyiv decided for a country of 45 million how it should live. This did not suit many Ukrainians and they decided to protest. Protest movements were strongest in eastern Ukraine, where there is a large Russian-speaking population. In some places, these riots were brutally suppressed, especially in Mariupol and Odessa, where 42 people were burned alive. But in Donetsk and Lugansk they failed to suppress the protests. Then the acting President of Ukraine Oleksandr Turchynov announced the start of the anti-terrorist operation (ATO). In order to somehow resolve this conflict, the Minsk agreements were concluded in 2015.
For seven years, Ukraine has not complied with the Minsk agreements, designed to end hostilities in the Donbass. In mid-February 2022, President Volodymyr Zelensky said that this document puts Ukraine in a "weaker, losing position". Russia recognized the sovereignty of the Donetsk and Lugansk People's Republics, based as a precedent on the decision of the International Court of Justice to recognize the independence of Kosovo. The treaties of friendship and mutual assistance were signed between Russia, the DPR and the LPR then. The Russian side and the heads of the republics demanded that Ukraine stop hostilities in the Donbass, but President Zelensky refused to withdraw Ukrainian troops. Following this, Russia invaded Ukraine, invoking Article 51 of Title VII of the UN Charter.

Quote from: paxmao on May 21, 2022, 09:30:40 PM

Nobody outside Russia (probably not that many inside) thinks that this war has anything to do with Nazism (Putin himself is behaving much more like the Nazi Reich and his army like the Wehrmacht).

There are reviews of many journalists and bloggers from different countries that this war is connected with Nazism. Most likely, you just don’t want to notice them.
British radio host Maajid Nawaz
Indian Youtube channel CRUX
French journalist Anne-Laure Bonnel
German journalist Thomas Röper
Chilean blogger Gonzalo Lira
Italian journalist Giorgio Bianchi
English journalist Peter Hitchens
French journalist Adrien Boquet

Quote from: paxmao on May 21, 2022, 09:30:40 PM

If Putin decides to treat POW as terrorist, the young and unprepared Russian soldiers sent to the front should not expect anything else.

You are obviously confusing something. These are Ukrainian soldiers torturing Russian prisoners of war. The exchange fund in Ukraine now has from 150 to 400 captured Russians, while there are already more than 6,000 captured Ukrainian soldiers.

Quote from: paxmao on May 21, 2022, 09:30:40 PM

Under Putin, Russia is acting as a terrorist state and it is to be expected that is granted the same "courtesy" as he has with the adversary.

Bold statement, what is it based on? On articles in the Western and Ukrainian press or the results of independent international investigations? In any case, if you think the Russian army is terrorist, then why do many countries continue to purchase Russian resources, thereby sponsoring the Russian military-industrial complex? If follow your logic, all the buyer countries cooperating with Russia are sponsors of terrorism, is that so?

Source

Quote from: paxmao on May 21, 2022, 09:30:40 PM

Do not die for Putin.

Do you sincerely think that such beliefs can influence someone in Russia? Do you think how many Russians read you here, especially those who are now fighting at the front?

Quote from: paxmao on May 21, 2022, 10:56:30 PM

Senate approved 40 Billion USD in help to Ukraine. That is the US view on the matter, putting the dollar where their mouth and the public opinion are.

This is not public opinion at all, the issues of Ukraine and, in general, armed conflicts between nations are now worrying people in the world (including the United States) much less than the problem of inflation.

Quote from: paxmao on May 21, 2022, 10:56:30 PM

I just noticed on the strategic map that if either Kherson or Melitopol fall Crimea may simply not have any water. The supply would be cut. Some maps even give a larger advantage to Ukraine in the South, calling contested some of the areas that Russia is taking for granted.

You may not know, but the Ukrainian government cut Crimea off from fresh water in 2014. The Russian government managed to solve this problem then.

Quote from: paxmao on May 22, 2022, 09:07:49 PM

Crimea is a contested territory that belongs to Ukraine and is under Russian occupation.

If Ukraine considers Crimea its territory, then why did the Ukrainian authorities in 2014 cut off the access of fresh water to the peninsula? Isn't this a crime against its own population? Can you explain further how the issue with Crimea is fundamentally different from Kosovo?

Quote from: paxmao on May 22, 2022, 09:07:49 PM

Even Putin understands the consequences of using any form of nuclear weapon.
The fact that he "declares" a territory "Russia" means that he would be drawn inevitably into a choice: Use nukes to defend it (with a corresponding response) or loose face. A third options is to be killed by his own circle.

You probably didn’t notice that even the American press already admits that Ukraine will most likely be forced to come to terms with the loss of territories, including Crimea. If you harbor unrealizable illusions about the return of the lands, then this will only lead to even greater sacrifices.

to suchmoon

Quote from: suchmoon on May 22, 2022, 02:23:11 AM

Quote from: Veleor on May 21, 2022, 12:03:05 PM

If he is guilty, he should be punished, better in Ukraine. There are hundreds of reports on the network about the atrocities of Russian soldiers. How many criminal cases have been opened and criminals named so far? None of the normal person will protect them. Ukrainian law enforcement agencies are required to publish complete information so that the thieves and rapists become known in Russia.

And they do that. But Russia isn't doing shit about it, and most likely Ukrainian law enforcement is not going to be able to arrest them. So what exactly is your problem here?

If measures are limited only to this, then this is clearly not enough. Ukrainian internal organs should seek to prosecute criminals at the international level, like such structures as Interpol, so that as soon as the accused is outside Russia, he is immediately arrested and taken to Ukraine. And It would be rather strange if this was not done, because, for example, the Ukrainian Ministry of Internal Affairs put a Russian opera singer and film director on the international wanted list for supporting the Russian army.

Quote from: suchmoon on May 22, 2022, 02:23:11 AM

I try to add warnings if I post e.g. rumors from telegram, otherwise if it's a reputable source then it's up to the reader to decide what to make of it. Again, I don't understand what your problem is here. If Russian military isn't looking its best in these news reports, it's most likely because it's a looting gang of criminals and not because the reports are wrong.

There is a problem, but it does not apply to me. You immediately accept as an indisputable truth if the American, British or Ukrainian press writes that Russian troops have committed a war crime. But when there are reports of crimes committed by the Ukrainian side, such as the torture of Russian captured soldiers or when the Ukrainian military deploys military equipment in residential areas (examples 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6), you dismiss them and call it "unconfirmed video or speculation". This is a prejudiced attitude.

Quote from: suchmoon on May 22, 2022, 02:23:11 AM

It would be quite absurd to use heavily-censored and mostly Kremlin-controlled media in Russia as sources for anything other than a laugh.

Do you think that there is no censorship in the Western and Ukrainian press?

Quote from: suchmoon on May 22, 2022, 02:23:11 AM

Totally not a fascist regime at all.

How would you call the situation when in Ukraine armed soldiers come to citizens who are posting pro-Russian posts, and then the military takes them away to the cry of their relatives?
https://twitter.com/JackPosobiec/status/1520735279249862658
Or when the Ukrainian authorities do not allow 21 Turkish ships to leave the port of Odessa and use them as a human shield to create an obstacle to an attack on the city. Note that this is written by a Turkish newspaper.

Quote from: suchmoon on May 22, 2022, 09:44:21 PM

Poland's president Andrzej Duda

By the way, it looks like he blurted out too much and because of this, Zelensky’s lies were accidentally discovered.
Polish President Andrzej Duda, in an interview with the Polska Times, said that Zelensky knew in advance about the impending offensive of Russian troops. Then why did the Time magazine present information in such a way that it was a "big surprise" for Zelensky and he allegedly had to wake his children when the invasion began? Why didn't Zelensky warn Ukrainian citizens about the impending attack and save people's lives if he knew about that? Below are quotes from two newspapers.

Code:

Andrzej Duda: "I was in Kyiv a few hours before the attack;
and we left Ukraine just a few hours before it.
In parting, Vladimir Zelensky told me that he was sure that
Ukraine would be attacked in the next few hours".

Code:

"Among the most vivid took place before sunrise on Feb. 24,
when he and his wife Olena Zelenska went to tell their children the bombing had started,
and to prepare them to flee their home. Their daughter is 17 and their son is 9,
both old enough to understand they were in danger.
"We woke them up," Zelensky told me, his eyes turning inward.
"It was loud. There were explosions over there."
... For months Zelensky had downplayed warnings from Washington that
Russia was about to invade. Now he registered the fact that an all-out war had broken out,
but could not yet grasp the totality of what it meant.

to DaRude

Quote from: DaRude on May 22, 2022, 08:13:38 PM

I really hope that you're in minority, my next goal is to try and estimate how many Ukrainians actually approve of the massacres and see Bandera as a hero

Polls among the Ukrainian population in April 2021 showed a level of positive attitude towards Stepan Bandera at about 31%, and towards the UPA - 46%. The survey was conducted among 2000 respondents aged 18 and over in all regions except for the DPR, LPR and Crimea.
Maybe you will be interested in the links to historical sources confirming that Stepan Bandera's group (OUN b) collaborated with Nazi Germany.

Translation from Ukrainian

Code:

Not later than 31 August 1941 **
...
IX
On all houses, walls, rafts, etc. inscriptions:
Long live the Ukrainian independent conciliar state.
Long live Yaroslav Stetsko!
Release Bandera! Release Stetsko!
We do not want Polish and Jewish landlords and bankers to return to Ukraine.
Death to Muscovites, Poles, Jews and other enemies of Ukraine.
Long live Hitler!
Long live the German army!
Long live our Orskomendant!
Let Germany smash Moscow and England, but let Ukraine be an independent and unified state.
Write with paint or ink. Not a print but on the wall

№119 Instruction No. 6 of the regional conductor of the OUN (S. Bandera) on the ZUZ I. Klimiv (E. Legends) on Ukrainization of personnel in administrative, economic, political and military affairs

The OUN, the UPA and the Holocaust: A Study in the Manufacturing of Historical Myths

Just please do not copy my entire post for a comment.

to af_newbie

Quote from: af_newbie on May 22, 2022, 02:37:02 PM

BTW, can you list the mass killings of civilians committed by Ukrainians since 1991? Who is the Nazi now? LOL.

Odessa 2014, Mariupol 2014, Donbass 2014-2021