Quote from: JayJuanGee on May 22, 2022, 06:03:33 PM

Quote from: Snowshow on May 22, 2022, 03:09:55 PM

Quote from: hZti on May 22, 2022, 11:05:57 AM

[edited out]

You have to prove I am wrong. Basically, you have to prove that debt and borrowers don't exist in the fiat currency system. And that people are able to benefit within the bitcoin system. You see how simple it is? Saying I am wrong doesn't mean I am.

One of the great things here is that no one has to prove anything to anybody else.

If we were trying to change some kind of practice or procedure or to decide who is correct about a dispute, then there would be burdens of proof for the person trying to make the change or to convince that a change is necessary or even to show which side is correct within a dispute.

But here we do not have that... there is no need for a resolution.

You seem to be trying to argue why bitcoin is not valuable relative to other systems (such as existing fiat systems that you seem to believe are valuable or even more valuable), and you might be correct or you might not be, and in the end, it does not matter too much because you can make your choices about how you want to go forward in the world - how you want to spend your time and your money and whether or not you want to invest in bitcoin as compared with investing in other assets.

To the extent that you are being genuine, it is difficult to believe that you are, because you are claiming to have some kind of unique and educated perspective, but ONLY you seem to agree with your own points to the extent that you have anything that means anything.

So, sure it is possible that you might be the ONLY one that is correct, but it seems that the overwhelming number of folks who have been studying bitcoin have come to recognize and appreciate value within the bitcoin system that causes some gravitation of further value into bitcoin, and so with the passage of time, it seems that more and more people are going to continue value bitcoin, and they might not even know why they are valuing bitcoin except for the fact that other people are valuing bitcoin.. so in that regard, it seems that Gresham's law principles are going to cause more and more value to gravitate into bitcoin - especially since bitcoin seems to be the soundest of monies that have ever been created - so the various inefficiencies of other monies will likely continue to flow into bitcoin, and the monetization of other goods will likely continue to gravitate into bitcoin.

Even though much of the monetary value is likely to continue to flow into bitcoin and it could take 20, 50, 100 or more years for a lot of the current inefficient monetizations to flow into bitcoin, there are still going to be ways that assets, property, goods and services are going to retain some value that is not monetary value but other ways that they are valued.... such as your earlier apple example. I cannot eat a bitcoin, so if I want an apple, I am going to need to exchange something for that apple, which may well end up being bitcoin - if I end up having nothing else that I am able to exchange for it and in a world in which all of the monetary systems have flowed into bitcoin.

In the end, you can choose where to hold your value Snowshow, and surely each of our choices have the potential to have quite differing consequences, and I am not even saying that you are going to be wrong if you choose to remain a no coiner.. even if 20 years down the road, you might realize that you could have done better by having had chosen to take a more aggressive approach towards accumulating bitcoin, which I already mentioned is not necessarily an all or nothing proposition.. and anywhere between 1% and 25% allocation would be a good place to start if you are still currently on zero.. the rest of your balancing of individual considerations should also be accounted, and you are not interested in those kinds of matters anyhow, and so why should I repeat things that I already mentioned?

Quote from: Snowshow on May 22, 2022, 03:09:55 PM

Quote from: Stalker22 on May 22, 2022, 12:24:56 PM

Quote from: Snowshow on May 22, 2022, 11:00:00 AM

Medium of exchange is something that benefits people otherwise it wouldn't become such a medium.

Yes, exactly. If Bitcoin did not benefit people, it would not be where it is today. Get it?

Here we go again. Economic resources in the form of good, services and labor is what benefits people. Bank deposits/banknots that grant access to borrower's goods, services and labor is what benefits people. Capital also benefits people. Real estate benefit people. Nothing of the sort exist in the bitcoin system.

You are correct that there are a variety of ways that people get benefits, and if bitcoin has value (which we seem to have establish that it does and that the value of bitcoin has grown through the years), then bitcoin can be exchanged for those other various goods and services that you mentioned above. People can choose how much bitcoin to exchange, and if they do not value bitcoin, then another medium of exchange will need to be found, so surely bitcoin is not going to work in every transaction - and especially bitcoin is not going to work if the counter party does not recognize it as valuable...

It seems to me that the longer bitcoin has been around, the more places and people and institutions that seem to recognize bitcoin as having value so may well be agreeable to entering into a direct exchange; however, there may well be some cases in which I want to buy that piece of property, and they only recognize dollars as valuable, so then I have to exchange my bitcoin for dollars before I am going to be able to acquire that piece of property.

Quote from: Snowshow on May 22, 2022, 03:09:55 PM

That's why people must run out of it. They run out of it by scamming new investors into it. And they do that by spreading disinformation that value/money asset exists in the bitcoin system.

Well.. if bitcoin loses its value, then I will need more of it to be able to buy any of the goods and services that I want to purchase with it. You are proclaiming that some shenanigans are going on that appear to be like a pyramid scheme going on in bitcoin, which you seem to not know what the fuck you are talking about.. but of course, you can believe what you like. In any event, history seems to show us that the longer that you have been into bitcoin, the more likely that bitcoin is either going to have a similar or a higher relative value than it had earlier... so of course, if you have not been into bitcoin long enough then you might not have been able to realize an appreciation of the value of your bitcoin, and your forum registration is ONLY two months, so it could be possible that you have not been in bitcoin for long enough..

So maybe we have to go back to a longer example, such as myself. Let's say hypothetically if between 2013 and 2017, I ended up acquiring a total 10 bitcoin, and it cost me around $10k to accumulate those 10 BTC.. so that is a cost of $1k per BTC.

Right now, I am not in any kind of desperate state regarding the BTC price because my profits are quite extensive (in the area of 30x on average if we are considering the current price of $30k per BTC). so I have options with those 10 BTC in terms of how to spend them, and if some folks do not want to accept my BTC, then I could incur some extra costs in order to be able to get dollars or whatever it is that they would like to exchange with me for me to get what I want to get with those 10 BTC or some fraction of a BTC.. for example, if I want to spend 0.0001 BTC on a cup of coffee.. or an apple.

Another hypothetical person might not have gotten into bitcoin until the 2018 to 2020 time period, and that person might have ended up ONLY being able to acquire around 1 BTC for the similar amount of $10k investment, so that person ends up having a $10k per BTC cost per BTC.. and currently with our BTC prices at $30k, such an investor might not really be in the mood to spend his/her bitcoin yet because s/he would just like to continue to stack sats and to keep building his/her BTC stash because s/he believes bitcoin will continue to go up in price, and maybe through the next 5 to 10 years s/he might be able to acquire another 0.2 BTC or maybe another 0.5 BTC depending on how much s/he is able to continue to invest into BTC with the passage of time and how much the BTC prices change during that ongoing investment period - whether the BTC prices go up or not (and many of us here seem to presume that on a longer timeframe BTC prices continue to have decently strongly likely chances to continue to go up with the passage of time, even though in the shorter time periods, it might not be so clear about how much BTC prices might go up or down).

Of course, you Snowshow sound as if you have been possibly studying bitcoin for longer than your forum registration date (which is only two months ago), but I can still appreciate how you may well feel confused or even not appreciating bitcoin's price going up with the passage of time if you have gotten into bitcoin in the past 2 years, it is possible that your BTC holdings could be under water at the moment.

Surely, bitcoin has already had a history of showing that it can take a decent amount of time to appreciate in value, and I have many times mentioned in the forum that I had portions of my bitcoin (the ones purchased at $1.2k) that were under water for nearly 3.5 years from November 2013 to March 2017 before they started to come above water, and surely part of the saving grace could be ongoing buying that ends up bringing down the average price per BTC and maybe even raising the cost per BTC with other mistakes that are made along the way, too. And, so maybe part of the point is that it can take a while for investment conviction to pay off and even to start to feel either decently large BTC compounding value or just have been able to accumulate enough with the passage of time and to have had enough time pass that the price has actually risen.. again getting back to timeline considerations which is also ONLY just one of the factors to consider regarding both getting into bitcoin and how much and how to allocate into it.

You can continue to speculate that bitcoin has no value and you can continue to not buy any bitcoin, or you can get the fuck started with some level of investment. I would imagine that in 5-10 years, history is not going to look kindly upon folks who knew about bitcoin in these times, and failed/refused to at least not take some kind of initial meaningful stake within their means rather than just ongoingly blinding themselves (and naysaying) to what seems to actually be happening in the world and that bitcoin should at least serve as some kind of hedge to other current systems, even if you may well continue to retain some skepticisms in regards to how bitcoin is retaining its value relative to other possible investments that you could make in these here seemingly ongoing trying times.

Let me try again because I see you jest repeat things irrelevant to this topic like someone is paying you to do so. That's after all the reason I stopped responding to your answers. But I have hope. So let's me ask you again. Let me ask a question related to this topic.

How bitcoin - whatever that is - has value, or how bitcoin benefits people if once people invest their value in the bitcoin system - where they supposedly got this valuable bitcoin, they are unable to return even a percentage of value, without new investors? Can you comprehend and answer such a simple question? If not, let me help you with two examples. The people that invested some type of value in Tesla company, are able to return other type of value from within that company. They invested in capital and capital produces value - cars. Capital also is value in itself because it consists of land, buildings, equipment and so on. Meaning, people don't need new investors to return value. Value is created or present in the system itself. Example 2. Fiat currency system. When people invest value - goods/services/labor in this system, they are able to return value from within that system, as I have already explained. Meaning, people don't need new investors to return value. Value is created (by the borrowers) in the system itself. Bitcoin system. In itself, this system neither creates nor has no value. That is why the only possible way for people to return value, once they invested value in the system, is from value brought by new investors. If new investors stop bringing value the previous investors are left with nothing. So, let me repeat the question for you: how bitcoin has value, or how bitcoin benefits people, if once people invest their value in the bitcoin system they are unable to return even a percentage of value, without new investors?