Quote from: death_wish on Today at 06:11:04 AM

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I appreciate reading your description of some of the various ways that POS is fucked up and largely emulating a variety of complex systems that already exist in the world outside bitcoin and also have historically existed.

One of the ways that I was struck through my going into some of your description was to get refreshed upon the so many variation of ways that corruption can get embedded into various kinds of POS systems - so none of them seem to be exactly alike because the various ways that they have centralization that can be used to scam people or to provide value can vary to a very great degree in terms of perhaps how honest some of their leaders are when the time comes to actually demonstrate their leadership.

Maybe a distinguishing factor regarding traditional POS systems in society would be that a variety of systems of accountability have been established, and surely some of those systems of accountability do not always work to protect the various stakeholders including the shareholders, customers, workers and public in general.

So an aspect of the POS systems that are built on a variety of shitcoins or other ways of convoluting and camouflaging the scamming would be that these various cyber (crypto/internet only) related systems is that they are faster moving and more difficult to recognize and understanding the players or to verify and identify that they do not have any real intentions to provide value other than hoping for the narrow group in control to be able to take advantage of the broader stakeholders/participants - while at the same time, it may well be known by the vast majority that the whole thing is a scam or a Rube Goldberg machine that cannot work except that some participants know that they are close enough to the Cantillon spigot in order to be guaranteed profits, others have high confidence that they are close enough to the Cantillon spigot, and sure ly there are a number who have no clue that they are the patsy at the card table.

Quote from: death_wish on Today at 06:11:04 AM

Bitcoin needs people to stand up and push back. Now. Propaganda attacks against Bitcoin are rising fast. The push for POS has been converting some significant POW altcoins (other than ETH, which has planned that switch for years), with the apparent objective of strategically isolating Bitcoin; most Bitcoiners don’t seem to care about that, but did you notice how heavily the annoying POS shill in this thread plays that angle? Legislative and regulatory attacks against POW are arriving in the U.S., in the E.U., and elsewhere. The time to get organized and start mounting a serious defense is not later.

I don't necessarily want to minimize the importance of what you are saying, at least in regards to the various ways in which bitcoiner could end up getting lured over into POS baloney - however, in several senses, it seems that a collapsing of all the shitcoins into becoming POS rather than POW shows that bitcoin is winning..

No other coin believes that they even have a chance to compete with bitcoin, so they convert into a scam.

I doubt that bitcoin is any more threatened by the mere fact that bitcoin ends up as the ONLY POW standing, and all the POS systems, banking institutions, governments and status quo rich folks are ganging up against bitcoin. Bitcoin was designed in a way to be resilient to attack, so not that I would be inviting attacks, but those institutions, individuals and governments who would supposedly be incentivized to attack bitcoin are also incentivized go establish their own financial stake in bitcoin.

In other words, i have my doubts in regards to any supposed attack or threat of attack to be any worse than it has been historically, because even though the attacks get BIGGER and BIGGER with the passage of time, bitcoin is not shrinking either... Bitcoin naysayers are always proclaiming that bitcoin is going to die or it is getting weaker, and really I doubt that getting weaker is actually the case, so part of the reason that the attacks on bitcoin have to get BIGGER and more dramatic is because bitcoin is getting BIGGER and BIGGER.. and it seems that more and more normies recognize and appreciate that they better get some kind of stake in bitcoin whether it is financial or psychological (of course both.. with various ways to get involved with bitcoin, including how to spend time and energies, too).

Quote from: death_wish on Today at 06:11:04 AM

Instead of being lazy and waiting for someone else to do what I think should be done—instead of idly complaining that others don’t act as I think they should—I should step up and do my part. When others do similarly for their own parts—when Bitcoiners are up in arms over this issue—then Bitcoin will have the resilience that it needs now more than ever.

I doubt that the resolve of bitcoiners is anywhere as close to as weak or as deteriorating as you suggest it to be.

The fact of the matter remains that Lindy effect continues to live in bitcoin, and each of bitcoin's network effects continues to grow, even if it takes time to really see the growth in clear and unambiguous ways.

Quote from: death_wish on Today at 06:11:04 AM

When the Bitcoin community as a whole actively defends against the “switch to POS” attack as vigorously as they defended Bitcoin in the Fork Wars, then I have full confidence that Bitcoin will prevail.

Quote from: death_wish on June 02, 2022, 07:33:34 PM

[ANN] POS is Fork Wars 2.0
[...]
This is an “all hands on-deck” moment.

Let all the various shitcoins switch to POS. We already know it is inferior, and I doubt that bitcoiners are going to be inclined in any kind of meaningful way (beyond the minority of possible attackers) to even want to consider switching to POS.

We already know that POW makes bitcoin into what it actually is - a paradigm shifting technology that is likely facilitating the largest wealth transfer in history - so why would we change away from the actual invention of bitcoin in order to uninvent it? makes no sense. nobody except the attackers against bitcoin think that there is any kind of plausible or reasonable way that bitcoin would actually switch.. so they would somehow have to gain consensus first, if they even know how to try to change bitcoin's code.. and what happened to Chris Larsen and his lame ass campaign.. not hearing too much about that recently, even though sure, the diptwat attackers have not given up, but whenever their ideas come up, they mostly are laughed out of the room in regards to "not going to happen." No one in bitcoin who matters actually takes that dumb shit seriously.

Quote from: stwenhao on Today at 03:09:12 PM

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Also i dont see a scenario in which miners would vote out their own business model.

Technically, they can. Also, the Lightning Network is based on Proof of Stake. There is no mining inside LN. That means, it is technically possible to transform Bitcoin into Proof of Stake coin, and give users some choice. So, a "coin in a coin" scenario is possible here and now, it is just a matter of pushing things higher, and turning the on-chain consensus into that.

Maybe I am missing something, but it seems to me that decentralization remains on a spectrum, and surely bitcoin has some areas in which people have accused it of not being completely decentralized or not decentralized enough; however, at the same time, it seems that bitcoin ongoing growth around POW and systems around POW have allowed it to push the limits of decentralization in regards to likely being amongst the most decentralized of systems ever to exist - at least in the magnitude of its importance including both current day value held and transacted on it but also future potential value held and transacted on it.

Accordingly, I am a little unclear regarding the point(s) that you are making stwenhao. To me, it seems that there can be various ways in which POS systems are built upon bitcoin, so in that regard, if the base layer of bitcoin remains decentralized (POW) then other layers can be a POS/POW or whatever combination of those, and the POW base layer still ends up as the grounding that is bringing value and security... I have heard this framed as Bitcoin's objectives/innovations/value proposition having had been achieved by retaining the ability (feasibility) to build centralized systems upon a decentralized system, but not the other way around.