Quote from: _act_ on Today at 12:21:41 PM

Quote from: JayJuanGee on Today at 12:16:07 AM

Of course, current spot price and ongoing dynamics related to BTC spot price is not comfortable for everyone, but I doubt that there is any need to just shut it off, wind it down or whatever other depression-based approach you are suggesting to be the better way forward.

Just like you meant, El Salvador is not going to do that. Thanks to their leader like their president, Nayib Bukele, minister of finance, Alejandro Zelaya and others that have learnt bitcoin price history and how bitcoin invest should be after losses (although no losses until they sell). They are there to help Salvadorans to know the true value of bitcoin and yet fiat remain accepted and working just like other countries that are bitcoin friendly, what people do not want to understand.

I did not want to cite your whole post merely to save some space, even though I am responding to some overall themes that seem to run through your overall in your post, and I don't really disagree with any of the points that you are making except that I believe that it likely bares repeating that the vast majority of us seem to understand that there are no guarantees that the BTC price will ever go up ever again or to repeatedly experience new all time highs, but frequently we use language to suggest that there is a kind of guarantee or something close to a guarantee that the BTC price is going to go up... Even that segment that you cited from Bukele has a kind of implicit assertion that "for sure" or "immediately" the BTC price is going to go up in the future.

Perhaps humans just have tendencies to talk in variations of absolutes, and I do not really have any problem with that because we should be able to still understand some of the sentiments of nuance even when people around us are using absolute language to describe events in the future .. so maybe I am just quibbling, even though I see that so many times many of us choose language that kind of suggests that there are guarantees that the BTC price is going to continue to go up or reach all time highs and various inevitability UPpity scenarios like that... and don't get me wrong.. I am guilty of some of the same, too.. even though I try to be careful to make sure that I am not overly selling it and that my audience still understands that there are no guarantees and maybe that is why from time to time we need to repeat that there are no guarantees, even when we are using bullish language to talk about bitcoin and its ongoingly very strong investment thesis.

Don't get me wrong. Bitcoin continues to serve as one of the strongest asset classes that the world has ever seen that is available on a kind of "anyone can invest" world-wide basis, which is likely contributing to its also serving as a kind of revolutionary vehicle that does not have to have violence contained within in order to facilitate the greatest wealth transfer that the world has ever seen for those who invest versus for those who lag in their investment or naysay in their investing into bitcoin.

So sure, there is a decent amount of value that price shows in terms of showing us how the battle is going .. the ups and the downs and the likely ongoing outrageous volatility that goes way beyond expectations in one direction and perhaps another. One of the most likely things in bitcoin remains its ongoing short term volatility because wealth does not get transferred without some violent actions.. even if we are merely referring to various informational and financial manipulation tools that are employed along the way.

So in that regard there is a lot of utility in bitcoin no matter what the price, and surely some of the extreme downward pressures that we see in recent times is likely related to how extensively there has been various risky bets that have been taken on bitcoin think terms of relying upon its price continuing to go up or failing to go down below certain price points in the short term, and to some extent if the market actors (bear whales or whoever) can understand that those kinds of risky bets have been made, then they can achieve a lot of advantages to pushing the btc spot price down to those various breaking points and then to cause those risky betters to totally lose or get recked (in bitcoin parlance) because those actors (whether individuals, exchanges, interest-bearing product providers, miners, shitcoiners, etc) were presuming that UPpity (or at least specific bottom foundational locations - such as the 200-week moving average) was inevitable in bitcoin's short term.

Quote from: jokers10 on Today at 03:06:35 PM

Quote from: JayJuanGee on Today at 12:16:07 AM

...
bringing us back to the question about why use the word "crypto" when trying to describe what is happening in El Salvador related to bitcoin.. back to you jokers10?
...

I'm not going to answer each part of question as I guess I've got what you mean. First: I don't promote any other cryptocurrencies to become adopted in El Salvador. Next, what is Bitcoin: it is a specific cryptocurrency with specific functions and background. What is crypto in general, as idea: it is a class of such cryptocurrencies, of how do they work, of how to use them, of which risks are there.

Fair enough.

It still remains a quite ambiguous practice to use the term crypto so frequently that you had done in your earlier posts without specifying the relationship to bitcoin, and we have a lot of fucktwats out there who are spreading misinformation through some of their failing and refusing to use the term bitcoin in their various discussions and also implying that there is some kind of equally other coins and blah blah blah referring to ethereums crap and some of the scamcoins and smoke and mirror projects to imply that they are somehow similar or equivalent to bitcoin. Lots of those folks are making bank on such misrepresentations or failure/refusal to be more clear in their language.. so we get all kinds of folks, including long term members in this forum parroting such vague language in their ways of talking about subject matters, even when we specifically seem to be talking about bitcoin (in a bitcoin-related thread).

I am not even opposed to talking about shitcoins or crypto or whatever as long as we can be somewhat clear about the terms and how it might be related to bitcoin if we happen to be in a bitcoin focused thread (like this one), and sure outside of this thread, if you are talking about shitcoins, then sure throw around vague-ass terms like crypto all that you want.. I don't tend to read a vast majority of that crap because I tend to NOT really understand what they are talking about half the time... unless they have some clarity in their discussion points.

Quote from: jokers10 on Today at 03:06:35 PM

So no, when I'm talking about what is happening with bitcoin in El Salvador I'm talking about bitcoin and I know that. But when I'm talking about education I'm talking about basic crypto knowledge and basic economy as I think that it is not enough to know just about bitcoin to use it wisely. It is not about learning about other cryptocurrencies, it is about learning basic ideas of the system, of idea, for which bitcoin is just a part, even if it is a main part.

Sure there are all kinds of ways that people are deficient in knowledge, and sometimes there could be some benefits to go into other areas, as you suggest, but sometimes that kind of higher level learning is not needed, so it will depend on context..

Let's say for example, there might be some governmental campaign efforts, that are aimed to teach people about how to use the Chivo wallet. They have 1-2 people at 20 locations around the country for 8 hours a day.. Monday through Friday.. something like that for four weeks, and then they reassess after 4 weeks. So, the workers might have a mandate to ONLY teach about Chivo wallet and nothing else, and maybe after 1 or 2 weeks into the campaign they learn that people are asking about some other related topics that are not in their mandate, they can choose whether to teach other additional topics or even choose new topics along the way.. change the number of locations or the number of teachers at each location.

I don't see anything wrong with focused educational efforts that do not necessarily need to teach people all the ways that they do not know enough about the world and personal finances. it may or many not be in the government's interest to take on those kinds of extra projects.. Let's say after having 3 months of on-the-street educational campaigns, the government decides that 1-2 weeks needs to be added for all 16-year old high school students to learn about the Chivo wallet and some other bitcoin and other crypto concepts, or that six public colleges should add a course that involves teaching about bitcoin-related matters, and the courses will be funded by the government so long as they include x, y z and a, b and c topics and meet certain curriculum criteria that may or may not be flexible depending on how the govt chooses to set up such guidance and/or whether to get involved in details or not.

There is no need to get all excited that everything needs to be taught to all people merely because a lot of normie plebs do not know, especially if the country (El Salvador) has a bitcoin focus, and they likely feel that they need to have some focus in terms of various aspects of their involvement including that they are leaving some educations efforts to private NGOs.. but at the same time, the government could still request data from NGOs or even create its own complementary or even competing services depending on how they measure the data on the ground and how it evolves over certain period s of time , whether over 3-6 months or even longer periods of time of measuring various aspects of data including but not limited to whether normie plebs know the difference between bitcoin and various broader financial matters and/or the "dangers" of shitcoins or even if there is going to be any need for the government to get into those kinds of potential ly confusing topics or do they need to save normie plebs from shitcoins or not.. there can be some hands off in terms of shitcoins in terms of not really stopping normie plebs from getting involved in those various other projects, but sometimes governments might see an interest in whether their citizens are being scammed or mislead or even if governmental efforts in respect to bitcoin are being undermined by some of the shitcoin projects that might come into such a bitcoin-friendly space that has been provided/facilitated by the govt.

Quote from: jokers10 on Today at 03:06:35 PM

I understand your point that you are worried about possible mess if some other cryptocurrencies would be promoted masquerading as education of crypto but teaching basics of crypto as an idea you'll IMO get the salvation of this problem. And hiding knowledge you'll get a mistrust.

I am not suggesting that there is any need to hide information.,, Focusing on bitcoin and proclaiming that shitcoins are mostly scams is not hiding information.. merely because you might have a different opinion about being more open to shitcoins.. I started out my responsive comments you to by asking what the fuck you are talking about in terms of the vague references to bitcoin and not using the word bitcoin in your description of what El Salvador is doing or what they should do.. so I was not so much not that concerned if you might want to promote shitcoins in one way or another, but instead I wanted to get clarification about what you meant in the ways that you chose to frame the matters.

Let's say for example, the El Salvador government decides to conduct some public meetings in 10 cities/towns around the country, and the purpose of such public meetings is to talk about the Chivo wallet and some basics about bitcoin, and when they get to the meeting, there are some groups that want to ask questions about shitcoins, and the government reps can say shut the fuck up about shitcoins and those various off-topic matters, we are conducting these meetings with public resources with various specific purposes to talk about x, y and z related to the Chivo wallet, bitcoin basics and some other purposes. Of course, they can be diplomatic in the way they might allow the raising of topics, but they also could choose to NOT open the topic beyond the ones that they choose at that particular time to promote.

Of course, the government can choose various ways to design their public meetings including whether they are open to various topics or not or they can also just say that if those shitcoiners want to promote their shitcoins and the various shitcoin talking points, then they can carry out those kinds of activities in private ways..The government does not have to be open to all topics, but it does not mean that they are hiding anything by focusing on bitcoin. You should well know that there is a difference between promoting something and being closed off to information.. or hiding information

You seem to have some difficulties if you believe that information is being hidden merely because it is not being promoted or even being an open talking point, which seems to be a misleading spin in which you are failing and refusing to appreciate the value of attempting to focus on bitcoin and even to likely exclude som e of the nonsense about shitcoins or even to frame the shitcoins as nonsense while potentially even allowing those kinds of shitcoin projects to still take place (in other venues).. since they might not be illegal, yet... and yeah some of the shitcoin and bitcoin adjacent (that are not bitcoin) projects may well have some value and benefits, perhaps? but that still does not mean that that such bitcoin adjacent ideas need to be open to discussion since they seem to be off-topic or irrelevant matters when there is a focus on bitcoin... which is not even close to the same as "being hidden."