Quote from: tadamichi on Today at 08:31:31 AM

Quote from: ObscurePen on Today at 08:00:07 AM

So I think what you are saying is that Bitcoin doesn't have any inherent value in it. This I believe (to the best of my knowledge, someone correct me if I am wrong. I am also still learning) is true.

The core value proposition of any monetary good is its properties as money, its not so much about wiping your ass with it or using it as jewellery, doing so would hurt the monetary value anyways. It doesnt have many functions outside of being used as money, but this doesnt make it valueless. Its literally what its designed as, this whole discussion is pointless, because he doesnt even understand the basic concept of money and creates more and more pseudo-intellectual theories since months, without even accepting any feedback.

Through the years, some of the frameworks regarding what is value and what is bitcoin have increasingly been articulated in more and more various ways - which does seem to increase the understandings of what bitcoin is and the various kinds of ways that it can be used.

Accordingly, bitcoin ends up challenging some of our own previous frameworks and ideas about what brings value, and even bringing better understandings to many of us regarding some of the strange ways that our current monetary system has been working (or not working so well for some folks).

Sure Snowshow has been attempting to adapt his various arguments too in order to describe the many ways that he believes bitcoin does not have any value and his claims that it is one BIG scam - while at the same time, he ends up contributing to show how vacuous his various arguments because we have actual real word evidence showing that bitcoin goes way beyond the various ways that he says that it does not do anything or that it is just one BIG scam.

Maybe it does not hurt for us to argue a bit with Snowshow to point to the various ways that empirical evidence does not support his claims regarding the present status of bitcoin and his speculations about the future are therefore also on shaking grounds and therefore unlikely to become true.

Just taking the concepts of intrinsic value and money.

Intrinsic value - sure it would seem that bitcoin could not have any intrinsic value because it did not even exist 14 years ago. It came into existence perhaps as an idea in its October 31, 2008 white paper that drew from previous ideas (and attempts at money and information systems), and then of course, it went live on January 3, 2009. So, we might be able to admit that bitcoin's value came into existence - and or that new kinds of value came into existence upon bitcoin's invention and going into practice and so in those kinds of way there can be new ways that value can come into the world and possibilities are enhanced. and even the human condition ends up being enhanced because there are new ways that value has come into the world and can bring value in ways that previously had been unattainable because the vehicle/entity/practice did not exist.

For sure, bitcoin goes way beyond traditional concepts of money, so bitcoin is way more than just money, and seems to be better money than the money that already exist (and/or has historically existed). Sure there are some ways that bitcoin might have some challenges, for example with the need for electricity or the internet or ways to communicate, so in that sense, there are ways that bitcoin is vulnerable - and even technologically confusing regarding the various ways that it can be communicated and/or stored. So yeah it does seem that Snowshow has been trying to appeal to a variety of concepts (such as money) that he either does not really understand or he is just vaguely and selectively referring to a variety of concepts to make it appear that bitcoin has no value because it does not fit into his frameworks and bitcoin is confusing.. which admittedly bitcoin is confusing when any of us dive into it and attempt to understand all aspects of it.

Quote from: darkv0rt3x on Today at 08:31:40 AM

Debt is a resource my ass! It provides shit other than slavery to the people, socialism and capitalism for the rich, politics, corrupts and other people like that. Society middle classes are wiped out at the expense of your so called (stupid) resource "debt". Debt is not a resource just because they tell you it is. You're so naive that chickens can see clearly what you cannot see!

I question whether it is helpful to proclaim that debt is not valuable or that debt cannot be valuable. Instead it seems that debt has become a systematic intrinsic formulation of current monetary systems that facilitate their using current systems oas smoke and mirrors and deciving people in terms of what money is and how it is distributed, which surely is far from fair and in many ways quite oppressive to some groups who wrongly believe that the money that they hold is not constantly being debased and they are being robbed on an ongoing basis by the debasement of money - and the incentives that are being created to cause everyone holding money to spend it in order to make the economy work. Those systems are not normal, even though Snowshow seems to be arguing them as if they were fair and normal and that sound money like bitcoin is inferior to debt based systems.

Anyhow, I guess I am just agreeing with Snowshow in regards to debt is not bad in itself, but it surely does not follow that having it as a system-wide practice would be superior to some kind of sound money system, such as bitcoin. Debt still could be used with bitcoin, but debt would not become the basis of bitcoin's system because its foundational level is not designed like that. Surely there could be systems that attempt to suggest that they are based on bitcoin and use various forms of debt (as if it were a second layer built on or besides bitcoin), but if push comes to shove, bitcoin inspires the backing of those kinds of systems too.

For sure many of us who recognize the value of bitcoin can appreciate that many of the systematic wide uses of debt are going to need to adjust themselves in the years to come while bitcoin will continue to get more valuable relative to all of those other systems, and to the extent that any of them can be saved, they likely shoud be attempting to figure out ways to peg themselves to bitcoin.. the soundest of monies ever known to man and the facilitator of the largest transfer of wealth in human history.. still in its early stages.

Quote from: tadamichi on Today at 08:50:46 AM

Quote from: ObscurePen on Today at 08:40:49 AM

Quote from: Snowshow on Today at 08:17:31 AM

It's a number that you get when giving your resources to someone in order to join Nakamoto scheme.

Thus doesn't the value of your resources get transcribed to bitcoin. Isn't this how gold gets its value? If (hypothetically) suddenly people said gold is not useful, then its price would drop because the value of the resource (our time + energy) that we are willing to pay for it is less.

Another reason could be the supply of gold increasing, if were really thinking long term and about the upcoming age of space exploration, gold might not be the best way to store value for humanity. There is just too much of it.

There's the concept of new gold coming into the picture, but there is also the concept that if gold's price or its demand goes up, then there are more incentives to look for it or to extract it from places that it might not have been extractable at lower prices (such as extracting it from the ocean waters).

So surely we have understood physical gold to have been historically amongst the soundest of monies before bitcoin, and surely with bitcoin, the demand or the price does not cause an ability to have more bitcoin produced. Every 10 minutes.. tick tock next block, and the supply is fixed, which is truly and interesting phenomena that was invented and put into place through bitcoin, but has never previously been put into practice so in that regard, it is quite interesting to see how it is playing out so far and how it will continue to play out - including various attacks on bitcoin (whether intentional or inadvertent) and various ways to attempt to break bitcoin, to gamble with bitcoin - or even to create distractions in which various coins, projects or value holding/transmitting concepts try to get themselves as a bitcoin replacement or a way to supplement or dilute bitcoin's supply, and so far it seems to be that nothing really comes close to bitcoin - even if there are a lot of diversions and distractions and ways that our eyes can be taken off of the prize, namely my lil precious. Cheesy

Quote from: Snowshow on Today at 05:12:35 PM

Quote from: tadamichi on Today at 03:56:14 PM

Quote from: Snowshow on Today at 01:07:15 PM

So, how can the bitcoin holders utilize bitcoins if nobody wants to buy bitcoins?

(Requires actually owning Bitcoin)

You can still send and receive Bitcoin even if no one buys them.
You can cryptographically sign messages.
You can immortalise not censorable messages on the chain(Julian Assange proved he was alive like this)
Becoming censorship resitant/ have un-confiscatable assets.

(Makes it more likely if you’ve been into Bitcoin)

Learning about how to apply cryptography in practice.
Run a node to learn more about computer science.
Inspect the code/ processes to learn about how to handle production software well.
Learning about P2P networks.
Learning more about software engineering.
Learning about game theory.
Learning about economics and human nature.
Learning how money functions.
Understand why decentralization matters.
Recognise the flaws in our current system.
Meet amazing people who are withstanding the highest hostility possible, to keep freedom alive.
Learn more about physics/ engineering to make mining more efficient/ utilise it differently.
Recognize bs even faster

See even if this thing doesnt bring in any profits/ money, the value is infinite for people who use it correctly. This list can for sure grow a lot longer.

Now:

How can you personally utilise gold without being a goldsmith, if no one accepts it anymore?
How can you use fiat when no accepts it anymore?

You’re touching the non productive nature of money, without realising this applies to any monetary good, and Bitcoin might not even be bad compared to previous forms of money. The barrier to even understand Bitcoin is high for many people, once you really understand it, you’ll touch so many different fields, because it’s requires this to really get there.

That has nothing to do with utilization, but is just nonsense created in your imagination. If bitcoin can be utilized, then a person that has 1,000,000 BTC, in comparation with a person that has 0.0001 BTC, must be able to get 10,000,000,000 more benefit without selling BTC to someone else. But obviously this is impossible. Because BTC is a number. Mathematical abstraction with zero utilization capacity. It's mind boggling how much stupidity you're are capable to produce only to try to defend undefendable.

Regarding the rest. My bike is non productive. But I can utilize it. My fiat money is non productive. But I can utilize it, as explained in the OP. That's because the first is a resource and the second is a record of a resource (debt). Your bitcoin is neither. It's a unit of a number created in imagination of an anonymous person or a group of people. That's why no one is able to utilize it and everyone is forced to dump it on someone else. Like in all fraudulent investment schemes. Stop defending this scam. You look foolish.

Wow. You look pretty foolish yourself Snowshow. Sure it is possible that tadamichi might be wrong about some of his assessments of various ways that bitcoin brings value or potentially brings value to the world or to himself, but you show yourself to completely be lacking in imagination or even abilities to attempt to think through a problem - beyond just repeating what you have repeatedly been saying in regards to the ONLY way that bitcoin has value is because other people have to want it or buy into it.

You are not completely wrong - but you are pretty damned close to being completely wrong - especially when you ongoingly continue to show that you are not even attempting to grapple with any ideas or facts that do not support your own narrow views regarding what value is from your perspective and the various other ways that there could be value objectively or even from the view of other people besides ur lil selfie.