Quote from: PlayBetr on October 06, 2022, 03:44:30 PM

We cannot provide direct evidence to the player. We have invested countless hours of labor and hundreds of thousands of dollars in tools to detect abusive multi-accounting. By showing these tools to the player, he will figure out a new way to beat them. We have seen this happen many times, based on information we have provided in forums or directly to players.

This makes perfect sense.

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In fact, he is doing that right now, by going to a forum to get his deposit back, because he has seen that this was the standard in the past.

System loss. In the case my question, should you have the right to confiscate the funds?
If you have detected him before he made the deposit then don't let him to deposit but if you detected after the deposit then it's better to send the fund back to the address it came from.

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We have already provided our evidence to a 3rd party mediator, who he has contacted. It is highly likely that after seeing our evidence, they will not waste their time with this case, but if they decide to take the case or need more information from us, we will cooperate and abide by their decision.

It goes like this, trust you if not you trust the third party, if not the third party then fourth party and continue. I don't think it will have an end especially if the player continuously deny that he did not receive any explanation.

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When a player is proven to be in violation of terms, we can certainly return the deposit to the first account, at which time they are warned that any additional accounts found will be seized. If we return the deposits to all the multiple accounts, then the user is putting us at risk, because they will likely have some accounts go undetected, while they risk nothing on the accounts which are caught and have deposits returned. The only thing that can stop these groups is by letting them know that they are not welcome and will face penalties for their attempts to defraud us (yes, intentional multi-accounting is fraud, as they are lying about who they are). In the case of this player, he had his funds returned on another account already. This is not his first account. It is also not his last account.

Unless you have KYC match for more than one account (KYC means not just uploading documents but to have a video conference with the ID which means 100% you are checking with the person you are attempting to) you can not guarantee 100% that two accounts are owned by the same person.
IP address match? It could be vpn. Betting pattern match? Thousands or millions of users are gambling, it's very likely many will have similar pattern.
There could be many more anti argument for anything that you will provide until you KYC a user with video conference.

Have you done KYC for the first account? If you have then do KYC for the account who is accusing now. See if it's the same person then you can tell it's 100% owned by same person. Until that you are just suspecting and every individual account you suspect should be blocked from depositing or if they deposit and then you suspect, block the account, return the fund.

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Any legitimate player who is against these penalties, is not doing what is best for the industry. I think the problem here is that people do not realize the scope at which this occurs. These are not accounts which are playing fairly. They are accounts which have their own tools in place so that they cannot lose on sportsbooks. These tools include placing late bets, arbitrage, using valuebet or surebet bots, using forking scanners, corridor betting, match fixing and more. These are people who are banned by every fiat sportsbook, so they create accounts at the Bitcoin ones. For years they have been stealing millions of dollars from us and we have joined forces with other reputable sites, along with the sportsbook odds providers to clean up the industry.

Within a week of adding additional sportsbooks to Playbetr, we had hundreds of new abusive accounts. These aren't individuals who happened upon us. This is a handful of professional abusers or syndicates, which create as many accounts as they can, to try and slip as many accounts by us as they can. Again, these are accounts that are using some sort of banned tool, so they cannot lose.

With all these struggles gambling industry is still thriving. Still big companies like bet365, paddy power, and many other fiat/none fiat gambling sites are thriving. The industry needs to work with this limitations forever.

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We would never accuse a player of multi-accounting or seize funds without 100% certainty of it. We have lost millions of dollars by paying out players who we weren't sure about at the time, but based on further investigation, we were able to determine it. In collaboration with other operators, sportsbook odds providers and security companies, we all continue to progress our skills, with a single goal in mind: To improve the sports betting industry. We operate with complete transparency and are not afraid of the extortion attempts of this and other players, who for so long have been using these forums to gain sympathy and get money

See here is the problem. It's not all transparent unless there are providing blockchain evidences or unbreakable evidences. Did the player got solid evidence? No (I am not saying to give him every bit of information but throw out some definite clue for him, so that he can not argue anymore), in the public place do we know if you are telling 100% truth, you are asking to believe your words (I have no problem considering the years of reputation you have but should we count on this?). Again throw out some clue so that it looks unbreakable. Right now all transparency are in between you and the third party you are using.

@b0r0, did you seek 3rd party mediation as PlayBetr is claiming, what is their take on this case?

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We told him he is welcome to seek 3rd party mediation. He did. And we provided our evidence. If nothing further occurs, then the mediator has made his decision.