Quote from: n0nce on November 07, 2022, 08:24:05 PM

Quote from: franky1 on November 07, 2022, 01:37:32 AM

dare you guys to try to take a onion packet (LN payment) and get it confirmed on the bitcoin network
i guarantee you it would even relay around the nodes, it wont end up in mempools and wont be put into a block.
LN payments are not bitcoin nor even measured in anything bitcoin understands

Literally every channel close transaction ever. Not Onion packets, but the channel state updates that are exchanged through them; those are simply valid channel close transactions that you can publish.

Would you argue that any Bitoin script that is not the regular OP_DUP OP_HASH160 <pubKeyHash> OP_EQUALVERIFY OP_CHECKSIG P2PKH transaction, 'is not Bitcoin'?

Lightning is nothing more than a different (but totally standard and accepted - otherwise it would be impossible to close channels - Bitcoin script) and exchanging updates of the spending transaction in an off-chain manner.

Quote from: franky1 on November 07, 2022, 01:37:32 AM

LN network can continue running with channels and making payments even if there was no bitcoin "locks" pegged to channel payments because the channels would still make payments using different currencies pegs.. so yea LN hint is in the N of LN is a different network and not bitcoin

That makes no sense. When updating channels, you don't do much more than updating a spending transaction for both peers. If there is no blockchain to create transactions on, the whole thing doesn't work. The blockchain is absolutely necessary.

this is where you are wrong.

IN LN and im not talking about session close events. im talking about within LN

you do realise when there is a "update" AFTER PAYMENT!!!!!!!!
even the update is not saved to your ram/hard drive in a bitcoin TX format

tha database and also the code format does have a script(signature) that complies to a bitcoin TX format. but its not saved on hard drives in a bitcoin tx format either
yes some LN nodes call the database 'buckets' where it saves values not in bitocin format but msat format and uses alot of translators to build into a bitcoin transaction when you want to broadcast. but when you are not initialising a broadcast. its not seen or stored in a bitcoin tx format.

try to read some code once in a while

heres a little hint for you..
in the update state. it also includes PENDING payments
yep the update state is different to an agreed 'close session'

the things to be aware of because LN uses msats and bitcoin uses sats
(2 totally different units of measure) users have to rely on software that has no audit or consensus of network security to do the conversions/pegging. so the 1sat:1000msat can be depegged if enough dumb users use a corrupt wallet with code that can change the 1:1000rate
also there are other bugs that can happen between converting an onion amount to a close session bitcoin tx format amount

LN is not bitcoin and people need to be risk aware of possible bugs and malicious code where they thing they received say 20,000msat. but their software confers it to not 20sat but 2sat
and users wont know about it until they are closing session and broadcast their [loses] because the whole time their gui when using LN is showing msat balances

Quote from: n0nce on November 07, 2022, 08:24:05 PM

If Lightning funds 'are not Bitcoin', what do you think happens when opening a Lightning channel? Funds are burned? And what happens when you close it? They reappear out of thin air into your wallet? It's a script. Lightning is just a Bitcoin script. It's not that complicated..

"lightning funds"
well you can open a lightning channel using litecoin and other currencies..

if you are still thinking "lightning" is and only is bitcoin then you have major learning to do

https://github.com/lightning/bolts/blob/master/02-peer-protocol.md#the-open_channel-message

Quote

The [chain_hash] value denotes the exact blockchain that the opened channel will reside within. This is usually the genesis hash of the respective blockchain. The existence of the [chain_hash] allows nodes to open channels across many distinct blockchains as well as have channels within multiple blockchains opened to the same peer (if it supports the target chains).

..
if you think when doing a LN payment(the onion routing stage) that at the "success" part, your 'value' is as good as guaranteed and trusted where you cant lose it.. you are fooling yourself.. its not a bitcoin settled amount that has "succeeded" ..

dont ever think that LN is as imutible and confirmed and settled and guaranteed as bitcoin

much like people should not trust that LBTC(liquid) or WBTC(sidechain) is as good as real bitcoin

if no one ever learns from the breaks of the stable coins and sidechains that broke their pegs.. then idiots will still lose funds and blame bitcoin because other idiots told them it is bitcoin

its ok to call LN a niche service that allows conversion and then faster payments of value of [insert coin] but dont try pretending that it is bitcoin

bitcoin security model and immutability function and its whole assistance is a different system compared to "smart contract" platforms

..
please atleast observe the reality of the network and code.. and not just admire the glossy advert someone suggested to you about LN
LN is not the same as bitcoin
much like a gold bar is not the same as gold backed paper bank promissory notes