Quote from: franky1 on December 20, 2022, 10:22:33 PM

bitcoin lives on the bitcoin network. it never leaves the bitcoin network and no one can create new bitcoin on or off the bitcoin network so anything pretending to be bitcoin outside the bitcoin network is not bitcoin

One could argue Bitcoin LN doesn't leave the Bitcoin network, it just doesn't move on-chain when it's moved in LN.

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if it uses a different unit
EG a token of 11 decimals. its not bitcoin

I have a broker accounts that uses fractions of cents internally. Does that mean it's not in euro? Or maybe it's not euros because it's not printed paper banknotes, but only numbers on a centralized computer. I think most people consider it to be euros, because for all practical purposes it acts the same, even though it's printed on "original" banknotes.

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if its not appearing as a confirmed bitcoin UTXO when you feel that you have been "paid" its not bitcoin

For me, the fact that it's guaranteed to be possible to get it on-chain is enough to trust LN. I get that we disagree, and I'm okay with that.