Quote from: Atlas on March 07, 2011, 04:43:47 PM

We have an entire universe full of them.

Which contributes to the present suckage of unemployment. You can't even go and grow your own food or build your own shelter without appeasing some capitalist for the right to use land that he owns but isn't using.

Quote from: error on March 07, 2011, 04:45:29 PM

This ridiculous theory of "capitalist" "exploitation" has been debunked so many times by so many different people that I am starting to wonder what you're up to.

Debunked? At least one capitalist, or devil's advocate, in this thread has agreed with my association of the two terms, just not that it's a bad thing.

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Employers do no useful work?! Clearly you've never been an employer, and probably never even known one, or you would know this is completely untrue.

Except for the fact that I am not presently an employer, I can assure you that you are wrong. I don't know how it affects my argument though.

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Oh, and the value of something bears absolutely no relation to the amount of labor used to produce it; its value is wholly subjective. Once you understand this simple fact, the rest of your whole economic quackery falls apart.

So, workers should sell that which they produce at market prices. If they contribute their labor to a larger product, they deserve a proportional share of the sale price. That's what I'm advocating.

Quote from: myrkul on March 07, 2011, 04:55:04 PM

Pardon? I don't recall any regulations or restrictions on buying industrial machinery, or raw materials, or any of the required equipment to do exactly the same thing he's doing for the employer on his own. Or are you suggesting that the employer make him a gift of the factory?

Beyond the restrictions and regulations set forth by the state, capitalists will set their own the resources they control. The builder of the factory can gift it if he likes. I recommend that he sell it to a party that will actually use it.

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Really? Expending resources (saved work from before) isn't the same as expending effort directly? Money is representative of value, regardless of how you define "value".

Right, and you can put your efforts towards exploiting others and gaining at their expense or not. For example, you can work to obtain a lock-picking set. With it, you can either use it to take other people's hard work or you can use it to do honest work as a locksmith.

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Of course they do. But a smart job-seeker uses people he didn't piss off as his references. As I said, there are always people who don't care what your prior employers say, they want your skills.

Perhaps it isn't profitable for employers to be vindictive. However, it's profitable for employers to find obedient hires. A worker's reputation had better befit that requirement.

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Good! Then they will allocate them to the best uses, as those are the most profitable.

Profitable use != best use. See slavery.

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You seem to be forgetting that a "Capitalist" isn't some big fat dude in an office, lighting his cigars with $100 bills. The worker who owns nothing more than his clothes and car is still a capitalist. He still seeks to offer his services at the best rate, and will seek that whenever possible.

I find it rather sad that even union workers demand higher wages and greater benefits with no apparent regard for the fact that they deserve to own that which they produce.

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That's an option... If he could find someone who contributes equally. If the new hire is just running the drill press, there's no reason from him to profit from the marketing, and packaging, and, and, and, etc.

The drill press operator still deserves his fair share of the final product.

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tl;dr: Welcome to the 21st Century. It's not 1840 anymore.

People are still people. 171 years hasn't changed that.

Quote from: gene on March 07, 2011, 05:14:59 PM

FatherMcGruder, don't worry. Those of us who know anything about history know that what you are saying is correct. The rest of them, well... the propaganda of the American right works wonders on comfortable middle-class suburbia dwellers. They are the target of the "education," after all.

And yes, those who operate the factories should own the factories. It's called a co-operative, and it is a wonderfully democratic way to have an industrial society.

+1 However, the capitalist delusion affects all members of society.

Quote from: Atlas on March 07, 2011, 06:11:36 PM

>implying most factory workers have the skills necessary to manage a factory.

The workers can delegate such duties to those most fit.

Quote from: myrkul on March 07, 2011, 06:17:37 PM

Or the desire! Not everyone wants that much stress on a daily basis.

A supporters of slavery used a similar argument against abolitionists. "Who says the slaves want to be free?"