Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on Today at 08:13:46 AM

I would suggest not engaging with Kruw and allowing him to derail yet another thread with his repeatedly debunked copy-and-paste nonsense. I've debunked the same post he has copy and pasted above multiple times over the last several months:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5286821.msg62413682#msg62413682
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5465398.msg62800032#msg62800032

Where's the "debunking" you claim to have performed? You admitted these Whirlpool coinjoins all produced unmixed change that could be tracked:

Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on September 05, 2023, 06:22:41 PM

The post doesn't even demonstrate that. It only demonstrates unmixed change being consolidated with other unmixed change.

If this user had upgraded to the WabiSabi coinjoin protocol, this tracing I performed would have never been possible because there would have been no unmixed change and common input ownership revealed.

Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on Today at 08:13:46 AM

The fact that he continues to post it when it is blatantly false, means either he doesn't understand anything about coinjoins or he knows what he is posting is a complete lie. Either way, he is not interested in discussion and only in pushing his agenda.

I've provided the proof, you can verify it for yourself. You can't hide from deanonymization if you use Whirlpool:

Quote from: Kruw on September 30, 2023, 04:59:57 PM

Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on May 23, 2023, 08:06:39 AM

Instead of enrolling three post-mix inputs as usual the coordinator will now enroll additional post-mix inputs. This makes the coinjoin transactions larger and therefore even harder to break

Why don't they create rounds larger than 5-8 inputs? zkSNACKs' coordinator creates coinjoins with 150-400 inputs, which provides much greater anonymity per transaction.

Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on May 24, 2023, 07:09:09 AM

These two new inputs are created from an initial transaction called Tx0 which splits the amount of be coinjoined in to the needed denominations to join the chosen pool, along with a few extra sats in to each input to pay the fee for that first coinjoin transaction.

This is an enormous waste of block space and less private compared to skipping tx0 and creating your equal sized denominations directly from the coinjoin transaction itself (like JoinMarket's coinjoins and Wasabi 1.0's ZeroLink implementation).

Quote from: Kryptowerk on June 03, 2023, 12:07:04 AM

btw, is there a statistic showing how many coin-join tx whirlpool is running per day? Just curious to see how popular their service has become.

The count of coinjoin transactions is not a good way to measure its popularity since some coinjoin transactions can have more or less inputs/outputs than others and more or less value mixed. For example, users of the WabiSabi coinjoin protocol mix 3x as much new BTC and remix >10x total BTC compared to Whirlpool despite creating 1/6 of the amount of coinjoin transactions. This is preferred since it is far more private and block space efficient to create larger sized coinjoins than smaller sized coinjoins.

Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on June 03, 2023, 04:55:03 PM

Regardless of which one you choose, I would spend some time reading about that specific implementation works, how it handles things like toxic change, and the steps you need to take to not mess up and negate the privacy it provides.

Quote from: RickDeckard on June 03, 2023, 03:28:21 PM

Nice dashboard, bookmarked! I might be wrong, but I suppose you're an avid user of coin-join usage. What would be the best method that one could apply to run a coin-join? I suppose using Sparrow Wallet would be the best bet?

Wasabi Wallet, BTCPay Server, or Trezor are your best choices since they support the WabiSabi coinjoin protocol and are prepackaged with Tor enabled by default. Like o_e_l_e_o mentioned, you need to be aware of how toxic change works. Whirlpool coinjoins create toxic change that can be tracked when it is spent in a future transaction. WabiSabi coinjoins eliminate toxic change by decomposing your input value into various sized denominations. Additionally, Whirlpool exposes common input ownership from coins you use in tx0 transactions. WabiSabi coinjoins also prevent common input ownership association, allowing multiple inputs to be registered privately by a user into a single round.

Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on June 05, 2023, 07:41:06 AM

In terms of privacy to an outside observer, then at the moment it depends on how you use them, but in the future I would say Whirlwind will provide better privacy than Whirlpool. If you coinjoin on Whirlpool, then your privacy is dependent on how many times you let the coins be mixed before you spend them. Assuming 5-input and 5-output coinjoins, then after one mix your backwards looking anonymity set is a maximum of 5. After two mixes, a maximum of 25. After three mixes, a maximum of 125. And so on. I say maximum, because if other people in the coinjoin do something stupid and deanonymize their coins, than that lowers your anonymity set. If you leave your coins in Whirlpool for months and months and end up with 10+ remixes then that's a very good anonymity set, but if you just let them be coinjoined once or twice before you spend them then that's not a very good anonymity set. This same principle applies to any coinjoin implementation. Whirlwind, on the other hand, currently has an anonymity set of 414 as long as you don't deposit huge amounts, and this is only going to grow. In the future, you will be able to get an anonymity set with Whirlwind of 10,000 or more.

Whirlwind scammed their users, what makes you think they didn't also sell their data?

Quote from: BlackHatCoiner on June 07, 2023, 07:16:16 PM

Whirlwind tries to minimize the consequences of this by dividing custody into multiple trustworthy forum members, but it doesn't eliminate it completely, and it's yet to implement this shared custody.

Whirlwind scammed their users, there's no excuse to give up custody of your funds or data.

Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on June 07, 2023, 08:30:35 PM

No, the coins remain under your control in either Samourai (mobile) or Sparrow (desktop), but with the obvious risk that these are hot wallets.

The WabiSabi coinjoin protocol allows you to coinjoin from a hardware wallet. Trezor already supports this.

Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on September 30, 2023, 01:28:20 PM

The first is the fee to Whirlpool itself, which is a flat fee depending on the pool you are joining.

The flat pool entry fee structure is designed to incentivize worst privacy practices. Since fees are not collected directly based on volume, it is cheaper to participate in a smaller pool and create more outputs than participate in a larger pool and create less outputs. Additionally, it incentivizes revealing common inputs ownership of premix UTXOs since it is cheaper to consolidate them to enter the pool once than to enter the pool with each UTXO individually. Samourai has never explained why they purposely chose a fee structure that heavily penalizes the most private usage of their protocol.

Because of this backwards design, you can easily link premix inputs to postmix outputs in many cases. Notice how this Whirlpool tx0 premix creates 70 outputs for 0.05 BTC - https://mempool.space/tx/63679c9ec82f246811acbab0c04cc0fc77ba050e1b6c23661d78afcfc13cf8aa

Notice how every single input of this Whirlpool exit transaction is a direct descendant of rounds created by the aforementioned premix transaction: https://mempool.space/tx/ce2f84f7c5ff74fb1da103acb7b279bd34f02f5e9e3a2e1b6417ce8b9b7392db

When many inputs used in the postmix exit transaction are created directly from a round that the premix transaction entered, it makes it trivial to trace the user through Whirlpool. Fortunately, the user abandoned Whirlpool and upgraded to using the WabiSabi coinjoin protocol instead, which made him completely untraceable: https://mempool.space/address/bc1qjjw5gaglkycu2lm5fskl7qhktk0hec4a5me3da

Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on Today at 08:13:46 AM

Anyone who wants to see the truth about Wasabi coinjoins being demixed, Wasabi doxxing their competitors, and Wasabi funding mass surveillance, can simply read the Wasabi thread. Any time he copies and pastes the same old nonsense again, just reply with a link to this post.

You are still confused - I already copied the post from the Wasabi thread to prove that WHIRLPOOL coinjoins can be demixed, not WabiSabi coinjoins. Stop confusing the traceable Whirlpool coinjoin protocol used by Samourai Wallet and Sparrow Wallet with the untraceable WabiSabi coinjoin protocol used by Wasabi Wallet, BTCPay Server, and Trezor.