Quote from: Obim34 on January 18, 2024, 06:38:46 AM

Quote from: JayJuanGee on January 18, 2024, 01:13:10 AM

We are not talking about those kinds of "taking profits" or figuring out when to take profits matters in this thread, and that is one of those concepts that traders try to impose upon you as if it were some kind of a prerequisite to figure out what your exit strategy is or is going to be.

Most likely if you have have an investment plan that is 4-10 years or more, then you may well can start to address those kind of taking profits matters or converting into other ways of managing your BTC holdings down the road.

And, sure there is nothing wrong with making sure that you are able to exit your investment if you were to need to exit, because no one should invest into anything if they have no way of exiting.. and surely one of the problems can be that there are ongoing attacks upon bitcoin, so that sometimes some of us might have gotten into bitcoin in certain kinds of ways that do not really allow us to get out in the same ways, including that exchanges lock up and close down and various other ways of getting out of BTC might end up drying up.. so it could be a bit concerning regarding knowing whihc kind of ways of liquidating bitcoin are going to be available by the time we enter into a stage where we are no longer accumulating, and we might want to trade and we might want to sell some or all. even though selling all does not seem like a great strategy either .. especially if someone might have spent 4-10 years or longer investing into bitcoin, so what would be the purpose of getting out? to buy a lambo? or maybe some other purpose(s)?

Not stretching on the topic of selling DCA accumulated Bitcoin but considering there is always an exit point for every investors.

You must live in a small world, or you have been overly influenced by "trading" talking points.

People talk about building and passing down generational wealth, so that is not about exiting, but instead about building, accumulating and maintaining pristine assets.

If you build enough of them, then you either do not have to sell any of them, or the wealth generates other kinds of income and you live off the income from the other cashflows that are generated.

Another possibility is to just skill off of the assets. If you aim to get to $2 million in assets (which produces $80k per year of income or $6,666 per month), and then you get to $1 million, and then all of a sudden (within a year or two) bitcoin ends up 10x or even 50x, then all of a sudden you have 5x to 25x more than you need (which would be $33,333 per month to $166,650 per month)... so you can skim your assets at 4% per year and then have 5x to 25x more than you need in your income or may you decide not to skim that much, so your assets just build. You do not have to sell them just because they appreciated in value a lot. What are you going to buy with the assets that is better? There is nothing that is better, so why fuck around with selling into some inferior asset or even consuming when you don't necessarily want to consume that much. Of course, you will have discretion when you end up having 5x to 25x more than what you had aimed for. I am not pointing out unrealistic scenarios, even if some folks have trouble holding through a 10x price rise, we had a 78x price rise from late 2015 (at $250-ish) to late 2017 at $19,666, and yeah the BTC price corrected back down to $3,124 so that the price appreciation might have ONLY have been considered to be 12x, but even at today's BTC prices of $41,200, the price appreciation still could be considered nearly 165x from 2015, so it is not unrealistic that someone might have even accumulated 200 BTC in 2015 with a mere $50k and then held onto most of his 200 BTC until now, or maybe he sold 50 BTC and he still has 150 BTC, so his $50k in terms of the remaining 150 BTC would still be valued over $6 million spot price and over $4.5 million if we use today's 200-week moving average price (which is right around $30,250).

Quote from: Obim34 on January 18, 2024, 06:38:46 AM

Quote from: JayJuanGee on January 18, 2024, 01:13:10 AM

so that sometimes some of us might have gotten into bitcoin in certain kinds of ways that do not really allow us to get out in the same ways, including that exchanges lock up and close down and various other ways of getting out of BTC might end up drying up..

It is not considered appropriate holding your investment on any exchange for a long time,

I am not talking about holding BTC on exchanges; however, I am talking about ways to get out of BTC. If you own 150 BTC, but you have no place to sell them, then you might feel trapped.

Quote from: Obim34 on January 18, 2024, 06:38:46 AM

yes the amount you DCA might be small to move to a hardware wallet or to your electrium wallet which is why after much accumulation then all your Bitcoin should be moved down there. These exchanges are easily compromised by hackers and their long continuity to exist can not even be sworn on.

You are talking about something other than what I was talking about.

Quote from: Troytech on January 18, 2024, 08:19:46 AM

Quote from: JayJuanGee on January 18, 2024, 03:05:28 AM

[edited out]

With this proper explanation I just feel like going back to my book to look at things properly and prepare, cause at the end of the day I'm the one bearing the risk and if I don't have a good plan it might end up been too difficult for me and as much as I'll hate to admit I'm a little scared as a beginner just didn't want anyone to mock or talk down on it.

Usually the best way to deal with fear is position size, so if you are trying to be aggressive with your BTC investment, you still likely have to not be so aggressive that you end up feeling uncomfortable... so ONLY you are going to be able to figure out that balance or even how much you might not want to say to others since your investment is your choice, but yeah, sometimes you want to share things with others close to you too. I know that I was called stupid by a lot of nocoiners and low coiners for 2-3 years and even more than that, because even when my BTC investment became profitable, I was called stupid for not cashing out in the big price rise of 2017, for example, and the same was true in the big price rise in 2021, why not cash out. So people are going to second guess you and you can even end up showing that the investment continues to go up, and they will still say it is dumb..and what happened in the past cannot also guarantee future performance that is even going to be close to past performance, but that still might go to getting comfortable with a position size... and maybe no matter what there is going to be some discomfort in regards to whether you put in enough or if you might have put in too much...and I am not sure how long it takes for those feelings to go away or to be sufficiently reduced.. maybe with such a volatile asset such as bitcoin that is almost inevitably going to continue to be volatile, uneasy feelings will never go away completely, but they can be put into some kind of a comfortable place that surely feels better when you are in profits as compared with being in losses, and even Michael Saylor (and MSTR) was in losses in regards to his bitcoin investment (with an investment average that was in the upper $20k and in the lower $30ks, depending on when you assessed his holdings) for a decent amount of time between mid-2022 and late 2023.

Quote from: Troytech on January 18, 2024, 08:19:46 AM

Quote from: JayJuanGee on January 18, 2024, 03:05:28 AM

[edited out]

If waiting for dips could cause panic to me than I think it would be better I divide that waiting money I a ratio of 60/40 where I'll use the 60% for instant lump sums since at the same time we are unable to conclude the short term moves of the market which could be with us or against us, then I'll add that 40% to my emergency funds and wait for major dips even if it would happen once or sometimes not even in a month. but at same time if I wait too long for dips without seeing them in a way I'll still be safe cause I've been accumulating and it would only help build my emergency funds for even better buying opportunities.

I am not sure if I get exactly what you are saying, yet having a plan is very helpful and sometimes having some flexibility is helpful, too. So yeah you can buy right away with some and then you can have some funds for buying on dip and also some funds that you add to your emergency fund, and once the emergency fund gets to a certain comfortable size, you likely would not need to keep adding to it, so then new money coming in would be able to dedicate to buying bitcoin DCA or holding for buying on dips. I recall when I was having some cashflow problems in mid 2015, there were several times that I was getting some extra $20 or $100 or some other random amount, and so I had expenses, so usually when that money came in, then within a day, I would spend half of it on buying bitcoin (no matter when it was confirmed to come in, either hit my bank account or I would receive in cash), then then the other half would just go towards expenses, so at the end of the month or whenever my various expenses were coming due, I could reassess based on the half that was building up if I had anything left that I would be able to use for buying more bitcoin, otherwise that extra money would just sit in my cash account an wait for various bills to come in and sometimes the certain bills would be expected to be a certain amount, and when they came in they might be more or less than expected, and some of the reserve funds would go to that if the bills were higher than expected, and if they were lower then expected then the money in that fund would be available for buying BTC... so yes, maybe you are saying something very similar, and after you practice such a thing several months, then you will get more used to what works for you and the ways that your cashflows are coming in. My situation was different in 2015 than it had been in other times based on some problems that I had with a business partner at the time that caused me extensive uncertainties, expenses but then uncertainties in my cashflow too.

Quote from: Troytech on January 18, 2024, 08:19:46 AM

Quote from: JayJuanGee on January 18, 2024, 03:05:28 AM

[edited out]

For now I think coming with a investment journal to properly track myself, it might seem a bit lame but I'm not very good with having numbers on my head,

Well use whatever you are able to use. I do find Excel to be very powerful to keep track.

But you could come up with various paper versions, even though the problem might be that you have to continuously rewrite everything once you change a variable or two. One good thing about excel is that you change one or two variables and then all of the numbers will be adjusted accordingly, so sometimes you can have several different variations of similar things that help you to figure out various scenarios and to incorporate them with copy and paste..and maybe just change a few of the variables and get a whole different set of numbers that you can compare scenarios.

Quote from: Troytech on January 18, 2024, 08:19:46 AM

I seriously don't want to bother myself about much calculations for now, since dca offers me safety even if price fluctuates as it likes, even if we have a bull run or a bear market what I should be more focused on now is to keep investing even if small amount while I'm building up emergency funds and bigger capital for my next month, since I'm giving a weekly approach for my dca , I'll wait till next month before I start adding lump sums, cause I love the emotional safety that dca gives me.

Nothing wrong with that... You should be at a point that you are comfortable anyhow.. so if you start out with $25 per week even though you could do $100 per week, you might feel more comfortable, and even if you have $1k available that you could lump sum, maybe you decide to just lump sum $200 at some point that you are ready and to hold the other $800 in reserves.

Quote from: Troytech on January 18, 2024, 08:19:46 AM

Quote from: JayJuanGee on January 18, 2024, 03:05:28 AM

[edited out]

The approach your teaching is quite very professional cause I can see it involves some real documentation and futuristic thinking. Im really unskilled with creating senerios but I'll try as much as I can to adapt, even if I make little mistakes that makes me not to reach my intended yearly goal, but I think all for the better I'll learn. I'm putting my gain hopes on dca for now , lump sum and dip buys are just if I see opportunities. Until I really get a hang of the market I'll stick around dca.

You also know more about yourself if you invest 3 months and then 6 months and the 9 months and then a year. So as you are investing, you get to know yourself better.. you get to know your balances, and you become more informed about your investment, especially if you are having some troubles with the theory sinking in, after you have some of your own experiences, then you have some stronger reference points in which to compare what you did and where you are at and what you might do into the future based on what you did and also where you are at that had hopefully changed, especially if you are reassessing a year or even several years down the road... Sometimes it can seem that the progress is taking place so slowly, especially in the beginning the amounts might seem so low... but if your holdings are growing then maybe it still seems that the amount that you are adding is so small compared to your total investment, but you also realize that if you spend years and years and years adding certain amounts, the total starts to build and even what you added might end up having some compounding effects later down the road.

Quote from: Troytech on January 18, 2024, 08:19:46 AM

Quote from: JayJuanGee on January 18, 2024, 03:05:28 AM

[edited out]

Okay I was thinking my approach was wrong by having high expectations, cause my initial plan and capital at hand based on my calculations and my expectations beign meet I could be able to accumulate at least half a bitcoin this year of the price to remain in the range of 40k-50k but since I don't know what to expect, I wanted to work with the approach of the guy from example 8 where I'll invest like half the money I dca and half in strategies lump sum since I intend to lump sum at dips too, but all this are been calculated based on the market initials and we don't know what to expect from bitcoin this year.

It seems that we are potentially in an upward trend this year and next year, but sure that is not easy to know. Probably the best that you can do is to project how much cash you are going to put into bitcoin rather than how much bitcoin that you will end up getting from that cash injection.

And with an Excel spreadsheet you could plot out the various kinds of scenarios in regards to your expected progress for this upcoming year, and 2025, 2026, 2027, 2028 and maybe additional years. Of course, you can do it on paper too, but it also seems to be one of those kinds of things that is constantly adjusting, which is one of the powers of the Excel spreadsheet, so you could even have some projected percentages of how much cash you might plan to spend to get BTC and also how much BTC you expect to get from each of the purchases, so you could have today's prices, and so as the price changes, the projections would change. .. so some scenarios might be BTC prices going down and others with BTC prices going flat and others with BTC prices going up, but I think that the most realistic is the scenarios of BTC prices going down, and so you might have some parts of thses projections that you change every month or whatever in order to project the future based on ongoing updates.

Quote from: Hewlet on January 18, 2024, 10:06:11 AM

Quote from: Obim34 on January 17, 2024, 10:44:08 PM

I might be wrong and will gladly ascept any correction but I think their should be a time to invest and a time to begin taking profits, one step needs to be attained first before taking the other.

no one makes an investment without the intention of making profit, as a matter of fact, the reason why we are talking about the best way of investing in bitcoin is because we want to make profit out of our investment. It's not like any profit would be guaranteed if you don't invest in the first place.

Now talking about the best time to take off your investment is totally a personal situation because their are lots of factor that could lead one to stop holding on to his bitcoin which might include unplanned event or an opportunity that the individuals feels could give greater returns to his funds. But in an ideal process when all these factors are out of place, it's best to sell off your accumulation after the price of bitcoin has increased above the amount you bought it, using the DCA method puts you at an advantage while selling off your asset because it's almost 100% certain that you will sell it out in a price bigger than the one you bought it.

What you are saying sounds pretty dumb Hewlet. What I mean is that we have an asset class that has a lot of power, and you are talking about selling merely because you are in profits, even though people who have been buying and holding bitcoin for 5 years, 8 years 10 years or longer have had varying amounts of additional profits because their BTC holdings have had opportunities to compound upon themselves several times, an the longer that they have been in BTC the more likely that they have older and older BTC that has compounded upon itself more and more. If they cash out every cycle, then they may have missed various price spikes and lost out on opportunities to compound their BTC investment.

Quote from: Justbillywitt on January 18, 2024, 01:45:03 PM

The reward for investment is profit right?

Have to be careful in terms of narrowing your goal down so much, since it may well be that investing should be giving you more financial and psychological freedom as well as options and security.

And many of us realized that even with the great performance of bitcoin, there can be periods in which we have to be careful about taking too many profits too soon and then we end up having way fewer bitcoin than we should have or could have had if we had been more patient to stick with a longer term mindset.

Quote from: Litzki1990 on January 18, 2024, 02:32:17 PM

Quote from: Obim34 on January 17, 2024, 10:44:08 PM

Quote from: Stepstowealth on January 17, 2024, 10:26:52 PM

If you took profit once, or it is not a regular thing, then it is okay to take profit. Do not just make it a regular thing because that is where it will affect the profit you are supposed to make from DCaing which should be the increase of your portfolio. Also if you are to make a withdrawal from what you have been DCAing, try so that it is not a very big amount that affects or takes out amount of money equal to what you will DCA for like three weeks. What I mean is, if you must withdraw, there should be a limit to what you plan to withdraw from what you are DCAing.

We having been discussing about the DCAing accumulation process for some time now but haven't put into consideration on how to take profits.
I might be wrong and will gladly ascept any correction but I think their should be a time to invest and a time to begin taking profits, one step needs to be attained first before taking the other.
It is best to live the investment from your DCAing to mature after completing the budget reaching a significant price during the bull run it can also be from personal decision and the way we view the market.

Something I would like to add to your first line is that it talks about investing in the DCA method, and by DCA method we mean investing in Bitcoin. You say saving in DCA method is not actually saving in DCA method. Saving means the amount of money left after the end of every month or week after spending, the amount of money that a user keeps in his bank account or somewhere else, we consider it as savings, but investment is different. A saver does not have to base his investment on the price of a particular coin just as the price of a particular coin changes. By DCA investment method we mean investing with fixed amount of money in different phases of coins.

I think that savings and investing are similar things, and it is likely not a great thing to be quibbling about which is which.

Of course, with investing we might be more concerned about making sure that we are earning a return and less concerned about short term liquidity, but these are mere trade-offs, and there are a lot of things that we could invest into and they have their differing attributes. but if we hone in on the topic of this thread, there might be a lot of us (or even newbies to bitcoin or even newbies to investing) in which it does not really matter so much what the difference might be between savings and investing because they well might be starting out with just balancing cash and bitcoin.. and each of them can be considered savings and investments because reaching the right kind of balance is going to have the cash serve as a way to help the bitcoin to continue to grown and not having to worry so much about if the bitcoin might be going up and down in value relative to the amount invested into it, but that if there might be consistencies in building and investment portfolio that might ONLY start out with two categories of assets/currencies (that is bitcoin and cash) then they are both serving as investment and savings, even though surely if the bitcoin is recognized and appreciated as the sounder of the monies, then there should be more efforts made to protect the BTC in terms of building it and spending it last.. and considering it in terms of longer time frames of storage of maybe even 4-10 years or longer.

Quote from: Hewlet on January 18, 2024, 03:25:19 PM

Quote from: Churchillvv on January 18, 2024, 01:24:22 AM

So this where most of us here in this thread gets it's all wrong because emergency funds are savings that are might to bail us put of situations that would have cost us our investment rather it will only take your emergency funds instead of your investment, that is the core purpose of emergency funds.
but most of you don't really understand this fact, if you're preparing yourself for investment, your emergency fund should be a priority for you in order to survive all kind of waves including the life threatening issues that was supposed to cost you your investment. This emergency funds should not just be for a mere car repair issues or minor medical issues but contain both the funds that will probably drive you away from all kind of problem that will seek you to attempt with your investment.

it seems you are making a theoretical statement sir.
As much as it is necessary to set out modalities in place that will prevent is from torching our holdings in times of emergency, the reality is thatt emergency do happen and it's not everybody that always have what you are talking about here as emergency funds. As a matter of fact, investing in bitcoin is the emergency fund of some people and when they are able to sell off their holdings to solve a particular life problem, it actually gives them relieve that the made a reasonable investment that they were able to use in solving their problem.

In this circle of individuals that are investing in bitcoin are the rich, the average individuals and the poor and emergency fund is more associated with people that are rich. The poor or average individuals considers their investment ad their backup and this is why they get easily tense by any fluctuation in the price of bitcoin.

The mere fact that you are poor does not make it a good idea to use your investment as an emergency fund, and it is even more important to work towards creating an emergency fund so that there is not going to be any need to dip in to the bitcoin investment.

I will agree with you that it could be the case that a poor person might never be able to get out of poverty because he might not have enough disposable income to actually either build up an emergency fund or to be able to invest separately from the emergency fund.. so it is quite difficult for anyone to invest who has a very small discretionary income.. and so it will be difficult to get ahead, even in bitcoin if all that they are able to invest is $10 per month or even $10 per week. I am not going to say to give up, but I am also not going to suggest that anyone should be using their investment as an emergency fund, otherwise they are not really taking enough measures to be able to invest and they are gambling rather than investing, and yeah, gambling can sometimes end up paying off, but it is not wise to gamble.