Quote from: AnonyMint on April 23, 2014, 08:24:27 PM

Quote from: tvbcof on April 23, 2014, 04:54:19 AM

Quote from: AnonyMint on April 23, 2014, 04:31:16 AM

...
The BLM has no jurisdiction there. The citizens are standing up for their Constitutional rights.
...

Say it all you like, but the trouble you have is that only a tiny sliver foaming wankers interpret things that way. Sad.

3 million "you take my gun from my cold, dead hand" are much more potent force than pussies like you.

If you had any god damned balls, you wouldn't give a fuck about your life and put it all on the line for the principles on which our forefathers shed their blood for every thing you have now, you ungrateful liberal piece-of-shit.

I'm a gun owner and don't plan on giving up that right without resistance. I don't have any problem getting guns because I don't have dangerous psychological pathologies which threaten others and am not a criminal. Every time I buy a gun I have to pass a background check. It's an annoyance, but I don't want armed criminals and militia wanabe nutjobs creeping around my place. Not that some reasonable background check solution is completely effective in solving this problem, and not that the system cannot be abused by centralized power structures, but on balance I accept it as a reasonable approach.

Quote from: AnonyMint on April 23, 2014, 08:24:27 PM

Quote from: tvbcof on April 23, 2014, 04:54:19 AM

FWIW, I personally believe that it is generally better that states control most of the non privately owned land within their jurisdictions.

No it is better if local government controls it. And if you don't understand why, then you don't understand a god damn thing about fitness. Try clicking my blog on my signature and see if you can learn a little bit of math.

Quote from: tvbcof on April 23, 2014, 04:54:19 AM

The Feds own to much of Utah as best I can tell. A handful of kooks camped out at Bundy's place is not the way to change it though.

You think real men that defend fitness are kooks. You are brain-dead, kooky.

Quote from: tvbcof on April 23, 2014, 04:54:19 AM

My state owns most of the land around me and I'm happy with that.

Because you don't know shit about fitness. You are ignorant of some basic mathematical concepts.

Not sure what that means (if anything) but most of the militia goobers I've seen are anything but 'fit'. Physically or mentally.

Quote from: AnonyMint on April 23, 2014, 08:24:27 PM

Quote from: tvbcof on April 23, 2014, 04:54:19 AM

Unfortunately we have kooks on the other side of the equation who have had recent success in halting even reasonable use of the forests

You fucking insane environmentalists go fuck a tree. I haven't forgotten your asinine post upthread about respecting the need to obtain a timber cutting permit.

Local communities should compete on how to manage resources, then clearly the best management will win and then optimum fitness will spread like a wave.

Generally I agree with the principle of political localization and autonomy. There is a realistic limit to how much things can be localized since the resources available to a local government are limited. There are also situations where problems and issues are geographically broad so localized political structures are inefficient (at best) to deal with them. Certain ecological issues fit into this catagory for instance.

Quote from: AnonyMint on April 23, 2014, 08:24:27 PM

Quote from: tvbcof on April 23, 2014, 04:54:19 AM

and there is a real possibility that the state will give up and sell the forest to private industry (or worse, give it to the Feds.)

Oh the horrors of private property.

Chances are you live in some asphalt jungle somewhere and are not really familiar with the kind of damage that wanton exploitation can do to an environment. I own more than a mile of riverfront on an unusually clean river. It is this way because the entire watershed is managed fairly carefully, and that is because the proceeds of extraction go to schools rather than into some investors pocket.

I was around in the 70's when industry (with the blessing of all levels of government) were spraying the same chemical constituents contained in agent orange all over the place. The chemical companies were geared up for it's manufacture and when the order came down to quit spraying it on Vietnamese villagers, they needed another outlet for the stuff. It kills alder trees which were at the time considered a weed. Most likely the calculation was that there would be {x} millions of dollars extra to be had and {y} excess deaths and the cost was worth it. The thing is that the excess deaths were localized and both my grandfather and the guy up the road died of bladder cancer.

Things are better now, and it certainly is not an artifact of giving private industry or absent landowners free reign to maximize their profits. What it is is an artifact of reasonable people in the community (including some hard core conservatives like my uncle who was a scientist) making a reasonable case against a serious injustice. That is the kind of action which works...consider it your civics lesson for the day.

Quote from: AnonyMint on April 23, 2014, 08:24:27 PM

Quote from: tvbcof on April 23, 2014, 04:54:19 AM

- Right-wingers have their Bundy ranch militia clowns.

Again you characterize scientists as right-wingers. That is a category error.

Quote from: tvbcof on April 23, 2014, 04:54:19 AM

What can you do?

I am doing something very powerful, but I don't need to advertize it to you. You just stay there and waddle in your own feces.

If you don't allow me as a U.S. Citizen to have my local community, then I don't allow you to have yours. Thus it is Civil War and a breakup of the USA ahead. You either allow local fitness and diversity, or you need totalitarianism to force people to be the same.

You and I are obviously not of the same philosophy and we should not live in the same community. You liberal and centrist fucks go live in your own community and bankrupt yourselves. We will go live in our very prosperous communities and laugh at you.

Frankly I think we (and the rest of the world) would be better off if the U.S. divided into about 5 separate nations. One would be the Pacific NW...the others I don't care a lot about. If you and your 'very powerful' thing you are doing brings that about, go for it. The whacko militia types are going to be a tiny minority in any segmentation of the country and will be managed by reasonable people in whatever manner it takes.