Quote from: Dailyscript on Today at 02:25:05 AM

Whether bitcoin investment or real estate all of the aforementioned investment can yield maximum result if it is managed proper. It is proper for crypto enthusiast to choose bitcoin investment over real estate because they have chosen it as an investment niche. You choose where you want to put your money as long as it is not money you can afford to lose.

Careful with your use of the term "crypto" because some folks might wrongly understand that there is some kind of value in being enthusiastic about shitcoins, when the real value is in bitcoin, and hopefully not too many here are very distracted into shitcoins, except maybe less than 10% of the value of their BTC if they cannot control their abilities to get distracted into shitcoins - or maybe the consider various shitcoins as potential testing grounds for bitcoin, which surely could be the case to the extent that they are not scamming people, distracting from value and/or printing money.

Regarding your point about real estate as it compares to bitcoin, of course, bitcoin is much more liquid, and of course, real estate has a lot of utility value in terms of its tangibility - even though its investment value has a lot of corruption with existing debt systems and taxing systems, but still does not necessarily take away from its value.. but just in a different category from bitcoin - even though bitcoin is likely going to continue to evolve to touch upon all value systems, and to the extent to which monetary value is held in real estate and even in other categories of investments such as equities (stocks), commodities, bonds, and various forms of cash/cash equivalents, in various ways, bitcoin is a more efficient ad more sound storage of value and a more pure and fair money, so value will continue to gravitate into bitcoin over the coming 50-200 years, and surely most of the other various ways to hold value will still hold some of their value, but likely not as much of a monetary premium as they currently have since bitcoin is better and in accordance with Gresham's law monetary value does tend to flow into the strongest, which means that you would spend your lesser value monies prior to spending the soundest of monies, and in this case, bitcoin is the soundest (at least right currently and likely into the future, even though it could take a long time for the various rebalancings to play out).

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Quote from: JayJuanGee on February 14, 2024, 07:22:56 PM

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It's not a joke. I truly believe that as Bitcoin HODLers, we should learn more about our investment. It's also no mere investment, it could be the most important asset, like Gold, that might serve as a back-up/fall-back if the current financial system fails/crashes.

Bitcoin's technical design and the design decisions made by the Core Developers ensures that it remains as a form of hard money for internet transactions. Those big institutions wouldn't touch Bitcoin and wrap it in an ETF, if that didn't have any value.

To the extent that you might not be changing your position and to the extent that I can even remember what we were arguing about in regards to whether bitcoin should be considered and presented to newbies as an investment or as something else, such as a technological phenomena that is better than any shitcoin.. blah blah, blah, it could well be that we are devolving into arguments about semantics... to the extent that you are still worked up about any of my potentially lame attempts at making light of bitcoin-related matters.

No ser, I'm merely telling you that investing in Bitcoin and learning its technical features about WHY it's a good investment is also as important, probably more, as taking it as an investment itself. Many newbies would probably not care, but I believe if experiencing their first -50% drawdown it would be those newbies that would not have enough conviction to HODL.

Thanks for that further clarification, and sure fair enough in regards to a potential importance that comes from trying to understand some of the technical aspects of bitcoin in order to contribute towards the potentiality of developing stronger investment conviction, and so maybe that again is helping to highlight where you and I are considering these kinds of matters regarding the importance (or lack thereof) technical knowledge differently.

It doesn't have to be a deep understanding of every technical feature of Bitcoin. I believe a mere understanding on why censorship-resistance is the main value-proposition of decentralization would be enough. From that, any person who's willing, could do his/her own research about how that's being made possible and why Proof Of Work and Bitcoin both can't exist without the other.

It's very VERY important for people to learn, or have the interest to learn these matters. They could form their own opinions later on and they'll never be misinformed by fudsters.

You seem to be saying something slightly different from what you were saying originally, even though perhaps you are sticking with your guns in regards to some necessities for some basic kinds of knowledge and/or conviction about bitcoin, and in that regard, I might not be saying anything too different from you - except probably I am differing in regards to my emphasis to get started investing into bitcoin right away and figure out the details as you go, and of course, the most important details happen to revolve around personal finances, and I stick to my original assertions that technical knowledge about bitcoin is not very necessary, but surely having some ideas about its design facilitating the soundest of monies is a good thing, yet how it does that can be learned along the way, and likely as people learn more and more about bitcoin, it is likely that they will come to realize that each detail of bitcoin is amazing, like you mentioned proof of work, but also the difficulty adjustment and the various ways of confirming the proper chain so that there can be no more than 21 million bitcoin..

and some of the technicalities can become quite difficult to understand - but some assurance can come from bitcoin continuing to run for more than 15 years in spite various attempts to attack it and break it... so the details are likely not even really known by long term hodlers... yet there likely still are needs to get started investing into bitcoin sooner rather than later and also to adjust position size in accordance with personal finances, with perhaps a beginning goal of 5% to 25% allocation towards bitcoin that might take a while to reach.. while at the same time studying the matter to figure out if a change might need to come in terms of allocating outside of that range and then considering how to treat ongoing and likely inevitable volatility in regards to BTC price changes.

Quote from: Gallar on Today at 08:24:57 AM

Quote from: Tmoonz on Today at 05:07:57 AM

Quote from: michellee on Today at 02:21:23 AM

Many people fail in their investments in Bitcoin and all because they didn't learn much about Bitcoin.

On the contrary wanting to have or learn much about Bitcoin could possibly leads to procrastination, you may end up not having Bitcoin in your portfolio because you feel you have not learnt much, from what I have learnt in this thread which I believe is the best, having the basics or fundamental knowledge of Bitcoin is all you need in your Bitcoin investment, while you tend to learn more as time progresses.
~Snip

Judging someone who learns too much about Bitcoin at the risk of having their bitcoin investment delayed, I don't think that's right. Because you need to know that every potential bitcoin investor has different traits, characteristics and desires. So of course there are potential investors who are very careful, there are also those who are just average (medium), or the worst are potential bitcoin investors who are too ignorant (don't study Bitcoin at all). So, of these three characteristics, maybe your opinion (@Tmoonz) is more inclined towards those who are just ordinary (medium) cautious. Because this is in accordance with what you explained. This means that when you want to invest in bitcoin, the scientific step (learning) is just to learn the basics about bitcoin. And the steps will definitely suit you and people who have normal alertness.

However, this is different from people (potential bitcoin investors) who have very high caution. A typical person like that will definitely never feel satisfied so something he is going to do (invest in bitcoin) has not been studied thoroughly. Because in essence, typical people who have high caution basically always want more details when studying something like Bitcoin. Because if there are no details, prospective bitcoin investors who are very careful will definitely not feel calm.
So at this point I assume that your assumptions(Tmoonz) are only intended for people with average (medium) caution and cannot be averaged out to all potential bitcoin investors.

Because in conclusion, every bitcoin investor has their own style and method when investing.

The current fact of the matter is that an overwhelming majority of people are either no coiners, and are way too under-allocated to bitcoin - even people who have already started to invest in bitcoin, so in essence, the likely way forward is for more people to get the fuck started and get some kind of allocation and figure out the details later.. .and yeah there are some people who do not want to study shit and don't want to look into anything and they just follow others, and maybe those people should only get a 1% allocation to bitcoin, even though the overwhelming normies should be able to tolerate 5% to 25% and to figure out why they are allocating 5% to 25% into bitcoin.. especially while there likely is an emergency in terms of their getting the fuck started, especially when their fiat and other various value systems are ongoingly debased because of the ongoing debasement of the dollar and other fiat currencies...; so act now normies, no coiners and low coiners or continue to get eroded and debased.. the choice is yours.

By the way, right now there might be even more urgency to get the fuck started rather than waiting, especially since it takes a while to figure out how to get coins and especially since we have a lot of rich people coming into BTC and the price is likely to pump in the coming years.. and at the same time, people still have to be careful not to reck themselves in terms of managing their own finances and taking responsibility over their own actions in regards to how to invest, how much to invest and/or not to invest.. those are all choices and each person is responsible for themselves. and the ramifications of their actions and/or non-actions.

Quote from: FinePoine0 on Today at 08:38:19 AM

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Quote from: TonmTong on February 18, 2024, 05:24:00 AM

For those who are trying to invest in new real estate, it can be good to start investing with Bitcoin. When I first invested it was very difficult for me because I didn't understand about real estate investment at first so I invested all my money in Bitcoin.

It is a good initiative for you to start investing in Bitcoin instead of investing in real estate.The fact that you use the dollar cost averaging method to invest in Bitcoin is also an important step you take.This approach has made the journey of Bitcoin investment easier for all of us.In DCA method we can invest our bitcoin anytime and we have to plan to hold it for a long time.

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Slowly. When I learned about investing, I started investing using DAC method without investing full money and gradually gained a lot of money.

By investing in Dollar Cost Averaging method one may not get good profit in short period of time it needs to hold for long time to get profit in this method. It was wise that you did not invest your entire money in Bitcoin because if you had invested your entire money you would have been forced to sell the investment when you needed the money. The advantage of investing in the DCA method is that we will gradually purchase bitcoins and hold them for a long period of time.

Never invest for a short period of time, the longer the Bitcoin investment, the more benefits you can reap. But I want to know? How long have you invested in bitcoins? I have been holding on to Bitcoin for over a year now even though I invest every 15 days (twice a month) my investment has often grown huge. Now my portfolio has added a lot of dividends, so I have proven from my investment that holding Bitcoin for a long time is definitely possible to earn more profits. So I will be ready to hold my investment for 7 to 8 years, and I will invest twice a month or weekly if I feel like investing.

Great that you have more than a year investing into bitcoin. What are you planning to do after 7-8 years? Do you have any tentative plans in that direction? You going to sell it all and buy something or do you have some other kind of plan?

Quote from: arwin100 on Today at 09:07:48 AM

Quote from: FinePoine0 on Today at 08:38:19 AM

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If you have enough knowledge then we can say that long term investment with bitcoin is good since there's a lot of potential for us to gain profit. But its not easy as that when you are newbie and doesn't have experience since you might encounter those FUDs or FOMO that can affect your decisions. And it will be critical if you get panic on some negative market condition since with that you might lose your holdings. Good that you hold your bitcoin for a year and for sure you already in profit but for other I would suggest that they should experience first how volatile the market so that they can gain a lot of experience that can be use to build up some strategy on their future investments made on bitcoin.

You are correct in what you seem to be saying arwin100. There is no miracle in terms of being in profits for anyone who has been ongoingly investing in bitcoin in the last year or two - especially since we are currently at all time higs over those past two years, so there is no way anyone would not be in profits as long as he is only buying and not using leverage and/or trading.

Actually if anyone has been consistently buying throughout bitcoin's history, he would currently be in profits, and the ONLY exceptions would be those who bought only in 2021 at prices higher than $52k.. (which would only be around 130 days in bitcoin's whole history that would fall into that category in which prices were higher than current prices) and did not buy before that and/or after that, which surely would be a kind of short-sightedness and lack of personal financial fundamentals, but surely there are some folks who fit in that category of short-sightedness (but they are exceptions to normal, so we should not dwell on those kinds of dummies when we are trying to figure out what to do for ourselves).

Quote from: Miles2006 on Today at 10:23:21 AM

No one actually said you can't invest and learn at the same time, the only difference here is don't buy aggressively as a newbie

This is exactly true. The recommendation is to be as aggressive as you can without being overly aggressive, and surely newbies are not likely to be in a position to be aggressive right from the start, even if they have some level of money that they can both throw straight in as a lump sum and even they have potentialities to either use all of their discretionary/disposable income or to take loans, those kinds of strategies would not be investing, they would be gambling.. which surely should be a measured approach, even if someone is able to employ some of the more sophisticated kinds of tools.

Best case scenario, someone smart like michael saylor was a newbie to bitcoin in mid-2020 and came into bitcoin fairly aggressively right from the start. but he is already a pretty sophisticated person and he never outspent his cash inflow nor his keeping of various cash reserves. He became more and more aggressive with the passage of time, and used leverage and other kinds of sophisticated debt instruments to acquire more BTC, but at the same time, he was (and is) a very sophisticated player (even as a newbie)...

Most newbies do not have the kinds of cashflows as Saylor, and even if they did, they have to make sure they tailor their approach and learn as they go.. which surely could take several months of studying bitcoin, and maybe they start out investing $10 per week while they are studying bitcoin even though they might be able to do $100 per week, they make sure they get their finances and psychology in order before they increase to $100 per week and then maybe they also come up with other funds that they might have..

and there are differences also with folks who completely rely upon monthly cashflows versus others who might have lump sums to invest, but even the lump sum person might have $100k in his investment portfolio and 10% (or $10k) cash available) that he is ready, willing and able to invest into bitcoin.. and maybe at the most that the newbie should invest into bitcoin would be between $3k and $5k (that would be 30% to 50% of that available cash) while they figure out their finances, psychology and also get oriented to some of the basics of bitcoin. which might need 100 hours or more of studying time, and surely there are folks who spend 100s and even 1,000s of hours studying bitcoin, which might not be necessary to get started, but might be necessary in order to reasonably (and justifiably) increase levels of aggressiveness of investing into bitcoin.

Quote from: I_Anime on Today at 10:35:25 AM

........ Which I ended regretting though but the little quantities of bitcoin I was holding in my portfolio was gradually increasing and that time didn't actually focus on DCAing I just purchased randomly.

Purchasing BTC randomly could likely still reasonably fit within the concept of DCA.. but I suppose what you are suggesting is that you were not very consistent in the frequency of your purchases, so you would have had not considered what you were doing as DCA.. even though it could have had loosely qualified as a form of whimpy and unorganized (random as you say) DCAing.

Quote from: I_Anime on Today at 10:35:25 AM

But now since using DCA strategies my portfolio is growing really fast and keep putting smile on my face, really wish I was among early holders of bitcoin, that would have made my investment more smoother but still there's still time for me to partake in this golden opportunity of investing in bitcoin.

You are still early.. so do as best as you can to be as aggressive as you can without overdoing it, and think long term with every time that you buy any BTC. .which is 4-10 years or longer, and it is quite likely that your earliest of purchases will compound more than your later purchases, yet since bitcoin is so damned volatile, you might have some of your later purchases outperforming your earlier purchases.. and at the same time, there likely remains a lot of value in being able to focus more on trying to stack as many satoshis as you are able to without getting too preoccupied by how much they cost.. and then also to figure out ways to secure them in private and secure wallets.. and surely right now, I am suggesting that when possible to keep the minimal size of your UTXOs in the $500 to $1k range .. which would be 1 million to 2 million satoshis.... and sure if you have some UTXOs that are smaller than that. even in the 100k to 200k range, then you might not need to sweat over it, but just realizing that sometimes those smaller UTXO sizes might give you fewer spending possibilities in terms of how economical they might be to spend.

Quote from: G_Besar on Today at 03:23:38 PM

Quote from: Mayor of ogba on Today at 12:13:27 PM

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I think people who already understand Bitcoin and also understand how the crypto market can experience unusual fluctuations through several things,

Fuck shitcoins. Why do you have to bring up that nonsense here? We are talking about bitcoin. Stop getting distracted with nonsensical, misleading and vague frameworks that hardly mean anything.

If you are talking about the bitcoin market, then talk about it, no need to refer to shitcoins and some vague, meaningless and misleading terminology in terms of describing what it is that you would like to say, unless you either want to distract people or if you, yourself, are distracted.

Quote from: G_Besar on Today at 03:23:38 PM

they will definitely not sell the Bitcoin they have bought just for short-term profits. Moreover, the profits can be very small and insignificant so taking one of the appropriate strategies such as DCA is a quite reasonable option because Bitcoin is very different from other cryptocurrencies.

Ok... great. I guess that you at least understand that part.

Quote from: G_Besar on Today at 03:23:38 PM

So it needs to be held and treated differently if everyone wants more profits by betting for a long time.

So if everyone wants more profits through Bitcoin, of course their own strategy must also be adjusted because Bitcoin, which has so far gained more interest, definitely still has good potential and can also be quite suitable for anyone to hold it in the long term. I also prefer the strategy you said because if you just buy at a low price and sell it again in the short term just because you see a small profit, I think that's not much different from trading and for some investors they certainly won't want to implement something like that.

This part of your post makes a lot of sense. Trading is not completely bad or anything like that, and some people, especially, in poor countries with few opportunities for decently paid jobs, they can end up making enough on trading in order to support themselves in ways that are much better than they could accomplish from a regular job - however at the same time, an overwhelming majority of the time, it is better to figure out various sources of income and to use your disposable/discretionary income to invest into bitcoin and to not be fucking around with either trading and/or shitcoins - and if you have a personality that you cannot help yourself from wanting to gamble and to trade and or to get distracted into shitcoins, then if you at least limit the amount of your exposure to that nonsense to less than 10% of your bitcoin holdings, then you can at least remain mostly focused in terms of making sure that you are prioritizing the value (which is bitcoin).

Quote from: adultcrypto on Today at 03:41:17 PM

Quote from: Justbillywitt on Today at 12:57:53 PM

Many people who has invested in bitcoin in the early days, at one point or the other made one mistake or the other and later realized themselves. Yes bitcoin has performed more than many people thought it would do in the early days. There were those who got bitcoin when it was less than $10 and sold when they saw $100 thinking it was the highest it could do. Many bought at $100 and sold at $1000, these are mistakes that were common with the early investors. Though the awareness in bitcoin today wasn't that much back then. So instead of dwelling on our mistakes which we can't do anything about, it's just best we get a fresh start and see how far we go, because bitcoin hasn't really achchived it's full potentials in terms of pricing.

I will not completely call selling bitcoin a mistake because if there were no sellers, there won't be buying and selling. Buying bitcoin and selling at $100 is not also categorically a mistake because that may be the target of the investors as his vision is limited to X10. People will continue to sell bitcoin based on their personal objectives which varies per individual, what I consider not proper is to assume that selling bitcoin generally constitute a mistake.

You are not wrong, but you have to be careful in regards to having those kinds of specific targets that end up resulting in trading rather than investing, so for example, if someone might decide that every time the BTC price doubles, he is going to sell 10% of his BTC holdings, then there is nothing really wrong with that in terms of the investment thesis and having sustainable withdrawal because 40% of the holdings would continue to compound, even after selling 10% after each doubling.. and so there could be variations of that which would be reasonable and consistent with ideas of trying to stay focused on investing rather than trading.

Now with the specific example of 10x, there could be some formulas for that too, but let me just stay with the idea of doubling.. .. so if we start out with 10 bitcoin at $5k (so that would be $50k invested.. I know I am using BIG numbers), then we could have various withdrawals and/or sales along the way and still experience compounding value, so if our first sale of BTC was at $10k, our numbers would end up looking like this.

# BTC   Fiat Rate   Total Value   Rake BTC   Rake USD   RakeUSD_Total
10.00000   $10,000.00   $100,000.00   1.00000   $10,000.00   $10,000.00
9.00000   $20,000.00   $180,000.00   0.90000   $18,000.00   $28,000.00
8.10000   $40,000.00   $324,000.00   0.81000   $32,400.00   $60,400.00
7.29000   $80,000.00   $583,200.00   0.72900   $58,320.00   $118,720.00

We would have sales of 10% of our holdings at $10k, $20k and $40k, and we would expect our next sale to happen at $80k... so the chart shows that if the BTC price went up to $80k, we would still have 7.29 BTC at that point, our BTC would be worth $583.2k, we would have had withdrawn (or sold) a total of 2.81 BTC, and we would have received around $118,720 for the amount that we sold.

We could also add for the possibility of using some of the value that we sold for buying back, and that would be other formulas that are not necessarily inconsistent with the concept of investing, so long as we do not necessarily count on being able to buy back, but instead place some probabilities on the possibility that we might use some (or all) of the funds for buying back.

You can see my discussion of the matter in this post (and thread), and you can plug in your own numbers and timelines on the Google spreadsheet that fillippone created to assist with these kinds of thought exercises.

Quote from: adultcrypto on Today at 03:41:17 PM

Investment in bitcoin generally have two phases namely: the accumulation phase and the liquidation phase.

That sounds too much like trading and/or gambling to characterize these kinds of matters with two phases and to leave out what is likely the most important phase, which is the maintenance phase, which likely includes both accumulation and liquidation and ways to manage your holdings for long periods of time after you have spent considerable amounts of time accumulating BTC and without necessarily ever completely liquidating your BTC holdings, perhaps not even at death if you either have goals of passing them down or if you might just want to die with whatever coins you had accumulated through your life (and had remaining under your exclusive control at the end of your life).

Quote from: adultcrypto on Today at 03:41:17 PM

The accumulation phase involves building the portfolio and that is where we apply the various buying methods and how to be able to HODL the purchased bitcoin.

Fair enough... accumulate BTC through primarily DCA, lump sum and buying on dips... and sure HODL also.

Quote from: adultcrypto on Today at 03:41:17 PM

beyond this accumulation phase is when it is expected that the investors should cash out some of his bitcoin asset at least to enjoy the dividend of his investment. This phase should also be followed systematically in order not to run out of bitcoin or end up regretting the manner in which it was done. I do not support selling too quickly because I see bitcoin beyond X10 as in the example you have given.

Even though you are using the term "liquidation," you are mostly describing maintenance rather than liquidation.. so you do seem to understand the most important phase of maintenance and management of your BTC holdings, which could likely end up being a life-time project in which you may well continue to learn and to improve upon your maintenance and management techniques.

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Quote from: TonmTong on February 18, 2024, 05:24:00 AM

For those who are trying to invest in new real estate, it can be good to start investing with Bitcoin. When I first invested it was very difficult for me because I didn't understand about real estate investment at first so I invested all my money in Bitcoin.

It is a good initiative for you to start investing in Bitcoin instead of investing in real estate.

That true, bitcoin cannot be compared with any other form of physical asset which are centralized, the part of the reasons to the most interesting aspect of bitcoin over every other form of asset is its decentralization, privacy and profitability which has been a wining edge already over others to follow behind, you cant have bitcoin as an alternative and try going for any other form of assets for an investment, holding bitcoin alone is profitable without any requirement or conditions attached as the other centralized asset requires from their investors.

I think that you are correct Dunamisx, but in our current world, including the existing dynamic that so many (if not all) of our expenses are likely to be denominated in fiat, you still likely need to maintain some kinds of fiat balances that are not only limited to your expenses (on a monthly basis), your emergency fund, reserves and float, and the more BTC that you might accumulate and/or the larger percentage of your networth that ends up being in BTC, you may well need to diversify into some other assets, even if they still might have a lot of interwoven false value through various fiat systems.. which would include but not limited to equities, property, commodities, bonds, and cash and/or cash equivalents.

The threshold point in which greater diversification might be necessary and prudent is not always going to be clear, and might not completely apply to all people, but there could be some ideas that when you start to get into the territory of having more than a half of a year of your expenses/income in bitcoin and maybe you already have emergency funds, reserve funds and float that is also at least half of a year of your expenses/income, then it could start to be justifiable to start to diversify into other assets, even though it may not be necessary and some BTC HODLers might be comfortable with their BTC holdings having valuations of 2 years or more of their income/expenses before they start to conclude that it would be advantageous and/or beneficial to the solidity of their own investment portfolio (and wealth preservation/growth) to start to diversify into some of the other asset categories.