Quote from: Ruttoshi on May 24, 2024, 11:26:59 AM

Quote from: GeorgeJohn on May 24, 2024, 10:43:02 AM

I can't be that conscious to invest due to bitcoin price is increasing rapidly, you most at least scrutinised the market and understand the next movement of Bitcoin through the chat or move of candles sticks, probably, we need to know that is not all about investing but understand the system firstmany of you is curious to invest when the price of bitcoin increasing and you feel is the best time to accumulate your bitcoin.

A beginner don't need to understand anything about the next movement of bitcoin or read candle sticks or charts because they are irrelevant. The reason why I said that they are irrelevant is because that investor does not want to trade. What you stated are for traders, a new beginner that plans to hodli for long will not run at loss and can buy bitcoin anytime either in the bull market or in the bear market. This is because his aim is to accumulate as many bitcoin as possible overtime and does not have plans of selling. If a new investor buys his first bitcoin during the bull run because he feels he needs to start right away, and continue to DCA every week or every month regularly without skipping on week or month, you will see that he will also buy bitcoin during the bear season till the next bull run. His average bitcoin price will be balanced and he will be in profit in the next 4 years even if bitcoin price have not passed when he bought his first bitcoin.

You are not really wrong Ruttoshi, yet there still is some need to not overly generalize because surely even within classes of investors there can be some that are more aggressive and some that are less aggressive, which will likely affect the way they accumulate bitcoin, and the extent to which they might remain focused on maximizing their bitcoin accumulation and/or balancing other aspects of their lives and even other investments that they make (and I am not even referring to bitcoin).

Another thing that we know about people generally is that there are not a lot of people who invest in the first place, so really an overwhelming majority of people either don't invest at all or they have trouble even consistently conjuring around 10% of their income in order to invest into bitcoin or anything else, so in that regards, those who do invest tend to either put money into properties or maybe they have some kind of a retirement plan that involves personal contributions - which even the employer might match some of the contributions to incentivize the utilization of such programs. In countries that do not have some of those systems, it is likely even more difficult to invest or save, and if there is concerns about the debasement of the currency, that creates additional disincentives to keep any value in the local currency - so yeah, the investors into bitcoin come from a relatively small group of folks who might even learn that bitcoin ends up being an option that is superior to other ways that they might save or invest, so they may well become encouraged to invest into bitcoin and surely to figure out the extent that they have discretionary income that can be used for such purposes.

Quote from: Ruttoshi on May 24, 2024, 11:26:59 AM

So this is why much knowledge about the market is not needed but on to buy and transfer to your hardware wallet, because you don't need to distract yourself about the price of bitcoin, you are only focus on buying. You should also note that the price of bitcoin increases overtime, and it is not easy to know the next movement of bitcoin price, and it is very stressful to read charts and candle as a beginner who has the money to start his bitcoin investment right away. Even traders lose a lot because they find it difficult to know the next bitcoin price movement and read candles.

It means that the new beginner that is suppose to buy bitcoin at 67k now will take a lot of time studing without any bitcoin, might end up buying at higher price or will miss the quantity of bitcoin he is suppose to have accumulated because of learning what is not useful in bitcoin long term investment. The new investor just like @JJG use to advise can start accumulating and learn at the same time.

I agree with a lot of this to the extent that we still might recognize and appreciate that it is neither guaranteed that BTC prices will go up and there also can be some value to not become overly concerned about the extent to which the BTC holdings are in profits during the earliest of years of accumulation, and even to take it for granted that they are going to end up in profits, even though surely there is a preference that the holdings do end up being in profits at some point and also there is a hope that the BTC holdings generally outperform other places that value could be place - especially in the longer term, but none of that is guaranteed either. So the position size and or the amount that is invested into bitcoin should be tailored to consider various potential scenarios in which bitcoin might fail to perform or there might be other better places to invest. Yeah, surely many of us are likely continuing to focus on bitcoin, even though the strength of its investment thesis is not guaranteed to continue to be strong - even while it currently seems to be amongst the best (if not the best place) to put extra value (aka discretionary income).

Quote from: avp2306 on May 24, 2024, 01:08:47 PM

Quote from: GeorgeJohn on May 24, 2024, 10:43:02 AM

[edited out]

I don't also get the point on why they should rush to invest on bitcoin since they might fall taking bad decision if they didn't planned well their accumulation and think about that they might come up late. As an investor you really need to consider first what is your potential plan to do and there's should be good budget plan so to avoid any bad complication on each investment choices they make.

You can do whatever you want. If you believe waiting and studying the bitcoin matter sufficiently/adequately helps you to prepare for up, then that is your choice.

If you don't start investing right away, then you are not preparing for up.

You might believe that it is not necessary to prepare for up. That is your choice.

Another thing is that the mere fact that you are starting to invest, does not mean that you jump in with all of your savings and/or disposable income right from the start. There are ways to start with a reasonable position size, and the less you know, the more likely the smaller your initial position size, including maybe the newbie just starts by investing $10 into bitcoin and the tries to figure matters out further from there in terms of the level of his investment aggressiveness, the frequency of his BTC purchases, his own financial matters including cashflow and discretionary income and the other 9 individual matters, but each of those 9 individual matters is like a moving target in which studying them and learning about them is never completely completed.

Quote from: Bravut on May 24, 2024, 01:14:06 PM

How can one make move for investing without understanding risk involved, this is solely the reason many are crying because of such impression of which they become liquidity for others.

Yep.. A lot of newbies fail/refuse to get started investing into bitcoin because they believe that they are merely serving as liquidity for others, and too bad for a lot of them who historically had thought that (and failed to get started) and those who continue to fail/appreciate the value of getting started rather than just waiting around for price drops that may or may not end up happening.

Quote from: promise444c5 on May 24, 2024, 01:27:14 PM

Quote from: bhadz on May 23, 2024, 11:40:20 PM

it should be a task to beginners to ask such questions, because for me I know quite well that you want to become successful you most ask others the pathway that makes them to be successful, so I know very well that what makes people to join bitcoin investment without making research is out of desperation, while is good to advantages and the disadvantages of something you wants to venture into it before you enroll yourself.

Yes!! from what I bold I wasn't directing the question to you actually I only picked the word Observe as in observing the market which I only see it as a way for short term investment

Yes.. and another interpretation of "observe" is to wait... which surely is not a good investment strategy - especially in regards to bitcoin.

Quote from: Churchillvv on May 24, 2024, 07:27:43 PM

Quote from: JayJuanGee on May 23, 2024, 07:06:29 PM

You seem to be fighting with the idea of discretionary income, which seems like a semantics fight rather than a substantive fight... since surely you seem to realize and recognize that there may well be limits on how much any of us is able to invest into bitcoin on a weekly/monthly basis and there are ways that we can attempt to prioritize our expenses.. or even work on ways to increase our income.. .. so yeah, no problem with providing examples in which priorities might be changed and still be within bounds of discretionary income in order to invest into bitcoin or however else a person might choose to invest his time, money and/or energies.

Apparently, it sounds like I'm obviously fighting the idea of discretionary income but perhaps I'm only of the opinion that some kind of folks prioritize luxury or some kind of lifestyle thats not healthy at some point over investment, which is irrational to an extent. From a clear point one can increase his or her work life, do extra jobs to achieve his or her preferences but not cutting down a good quantity of their supposed investment capital to fulfill some kind of lifestyle that could put on hold for a moment hence achieving a necessity like bitcoin investment.

There is ONLY so much that I can do in terms of presenting the ideas, and attempting to point out where I believe that your thinking is problematic, and sure maybe it is possible that we still arrive at the same place since we are considering similar ideas but instead placing some of the ideas in extra categories.

There is nothing wrong with prioritizing investments and even cutting various kinds of consumption that you do in order to increase your discretionary income, but still in the end, the investment is coming from extra money that you have that is calculated after you have considered your expenses, and the mere fact that you are wanting to give the investment equal priority (or similar priority) as compared with expenses that you might have is still likely coming out of the fact that you actually have discretionary income, even if you might be calling it something else... and maybe even if you are suggesting that you can go without some of your expenses and still be fine, which shows that they were not basic expenses but instead somewhat discretionary expenses and people are going to likely draw the line in different places in regards to which expenses are needed versus which ones are luxuries and also considerations if their body is strong enough to eat some foods with inferior ingredients that might cost less than the more nutritious options.

Quote from: Churchillvv on May 24, 2024, 07:27:43 PM

Quote from: JayJuanGee on May 23, 2024, 07:06:29 PM

[edited out]

Sometimes ago I was reading one of your works @JayJuanGee where I came across @bitmover saying he was going to continue accumulating bitcoin after some quality conversations with you JJG, I felt at that point he must have been feeling his accumulations was already perfect for himslef but after few constructive discussions he then realised the need for him to keep accumulating bitcoin.

Quote from: bitmover on May 20, 2024, 06:23:37 PM

Quote from: JayJuanGee on May 19, 2024, 11:08:21 PM

~Edited out~

I have about 30% in bitcoin. I was worried about that as I considered it a lot.

However, after recents discussions with you JJG, and some recent thoughts about the market , I stopped selling for a while. I will try to increase it.✂️

I had a few back and forth discussions with bitmover in regards to the two main tools in my sustainable withdrawal thread, so many times I had attempted to emphasize with bitmover and with other forum members that I presume that the context of using either of the two main sustainable withdrawal tools is to get your BTC holdings to a point of over-accumulation first, so it becomes more problematic (but not impossible) to use the sustainable withdrawal tools that I am suggesting (and within the context that I am suggesting them) without first reaching high levels of BTC accumulation and/or perhaps coming to an assessment that you had actually overly accumulated BTC.

The two sustainable withdrawal tools that describe (one time based and the other price based) could also be used in some trading contexts - even though I do consider them to be more valuable when assessed from a perspective of having had already reached some level of BTC over accumulation.. so I am pretty sure that bitmover was considering my comments in that light and coming to his own assessment that he likely had not yet accumulated enough BTC in order to be starting to employ much if any BTC selling tools.. .. another thing that I frequently spout is that selling BTC is not a good strategy for accumulating BTC, and so it sometimes can take a lot of time to get out of the selling mindset since many of us likely realize that in theory selling higher and buying lower will allow the buying of more BTC than the amount sold.. but just because there is a good and/or reasonable theory that does not necessarily mean that it is a good thing to actually attempt to practice rather than mostly focusing on various buying strategies, such as DCA, buying on dips and lump sum buying.

Quote from: red4slash on May 24, 2024, 07:46:03 PM

Quote from: JayJuanGee on May 23, 2024, 07:58:51 PM

Quote from: red4slash on May 23, 2024, 07:35:23 PM

Maybe if indeed when we enter the total monthly investment expenses plus our needs for 1 month it will seem to be misleading but in this case I personally distinguish the calculation notes to make it easier for myself to manage the finances that I do.
For example, this month I have an income of around $300 a month and I spend $200 for personal needs and around $50 to buy bitcoin. I will make different notes for investments where indeed in the ledger the financial records will definitely remain $250 as this month's expenses but when talking about bitcoin we definitely need another record where there must be a record in the expenses we make for the purchase of bitcoin so that we know how much we have spent on bitcoin while we are here and that in my opinion is important as a consideration and as a belief that in the end being in bitcoin is profitable so that we don't not know how much of our money we spend on bitcoin and how much profit we can take.

But indeed in the end maybe this depends on what we are comfortable doing because the most important thing in this case is that we don't mess around with the way we manage money regardless of the different ways that are done and the mention of something in the end the goal remains the same, namely bitcoin investment.

In your example, if a guy is buying bitcoin with 25% of his expenses (50/200), then after about 4 years, the guy would have invested a whole year's worth of his expenses into bitcoin.. .So that would not be a bad place to be in terms of building a BTC holdings that has greater chances of getting him to fuck you status or some kind of a status in which he can start to employ sustainable withdrawal.

I wonder how important your ideas about profit taking is? Sure we want to be in profits or even presume ourselves to be in profits with the passage of time, yet if the guy in your example continues with his practice of investing 25% of his expenses into bitcoin per year for 12 years, he has therefore invested 3 years worth of his expenses into bitcoin at the 12 year mark. So then maybe the other question might be how bitcoin ended up performing over that time in order to allow the amount invested to grow at least with the cost of living increases and perhaps more than that. ... even though there are no guarantees...

So I am not necessarily going to presume regarding how much profits the guy might be in, yet I would suggest that the value of his holdings may well help to guide him in regards to whether he needs to continue to invest/accumulate bitcoin or if he might bd ready to start to employ some other strategies that might either be just maintenance or perhaps getting into various kinds of withdrawal practices, whether that would be time-based withdrawals and/or raking kinds of strategies.

Surely we make our own assessments regarding where we are at and how we might want to replace and/or supplement our income with bitcoin withdrawals if we happen to get ourselves into such a position.

okay indirectly you are saying that maybe in this case the accumulation is too big but as long as we are able then why not because after all this is not about our own ability in the end right? say indeed it is 25 percent of total income if indeed they can cover it then I think it is not a problem because after all when we are in something (including in bitcoin) then indeed we must be able to consider for some period of time ahead and again in this case I prefer to divide it periodically so for 12 years it is too long for me so 5 years is enough and when you consider the performance of bitcoin during that period (I want to take 5 years) as the timeframe I'm using right now and with the economy getting tougher in the end it's also predictable and we're also not likely to just stay at $300 for personal income because when the economy goes up then in this case the salary in our job usually follows in order to be balanced and that's been happening in the last few years so in the end when we can afford to make 25 percent of the initial budget then it's not a problem as long as we're willing to accept the risk.
In addition, returning to the initial discussion about capital in the end this is also important because investment can also be a business and we must know how much we spend on accumulating bitcoins that we buy from the beginning to a certain extent consistently and how much profit we get after we invest in that period of time. It becomes an important part because after all we are in bitcoin is for profit and financial freedom so the profit factor even though it is only a figurative expression because the bitcoin remains the same only the value is different must still be considered.

I don't disagree with anything that you are saying surely guys might have some difficult times figuring out what there investment timeline is exactly, even if they might consider that they have a relatively long investment timeline of 4-10 years or longer.. or even 10 yers or longer rather than your example of 5 years.. but even at 5 years, there could be a concern about reassessment, even though no one should consider that he is so locked into his investment that he is not able to reassess and tweak from time to time, which also might be considering changing the amounts he is putting in and the timeline and other ways that he is managing his budget, and also if he might have some lifestyle considerations that he is accounting for that causes him to want to consider that he might start to cash out of his bitcoin in 5 years or so rather than allowing the investment to ride for longer.