Quote from: Out of mind on Today at 08:10:02 AM

Quote from: Felicity_Tide on May 28, 2024, 06:57:40 PM

[edited out

Although you are right, we have to remember that the formula is the same in trading and investing. That is, invest and trade with the amount of money you can afford to lose.

You are making misleading statements - including that we are not in a compare and contrast trading/investing thread.

This thread is not about trading, which you should be able to determine that based on the title and the OP in which selling is not part of the way to accumulate more bitcoin for the long term.

Yes... investing in something volatile like bitcoin does involve the concept of using money that you can put away for 4-10 years or longer and also that you do not have any expectation that you are guaranteed to get any or all of it back or that you are going to make profits, even though you are investing because you consider that bitcoin is a good place to put value in that 4-10 years or longer time frame.

In regards to what money or how you think about money that you dedicate to trading and what are the principles for that, who fucking cares? it is not relevant to this thread... regarding how to trade, why to trade and how to play those kinds of games that may well amount to gambling.. and sure, you should try to make sure that you don't need that money for your living expenses.. but in the end, we are not talking about gambling, selling and/or trading in this thread.

Selling is not even a very good way of thinking about how to accumulate bitcoin.., if the goal might be to figure out ways to accumulate bitcoin, which seems to be the topic of this thread.. What are the various ways to accumulate bitcoin? selling is not part of the ways that we are discussing.. but we are discussing various ways to buy bitcoin and also the idea of holding bitcoin (perhaps when you run out of money or maybe in other circumstances that you might consider selling prior to having had accumulated an meaningful and significant BTC stash size.

Quote from: Out of mind on Today at 08:10:02 AM

Only when you are able to lose the amount of money will your energy and inclination towards investment work, but you will not be emotional. Many times it is seen that people are afraid of investing, but instead of being afraid of investing, they participate in the investment with the money that they can afford to lose.

I agree with you here. So if you invest into bitcoin, and you realize that the most that you could lose is 100% of what you invest, then you should be trying to figure out an amount that you are willing to put into bitcoin and still be willing to just let it ride with a realization that you could lose up to 100% of what you put into bitcoin. Surely you are better off if the BTC price goes up rather than down from the time that you invested into it, but again there is no guarantees which way the BTC price is going to go in the short term or in the long term.

Quote from: Out of mind on Today at 08:10:02 AM

For example, if you can afford to invest $10, you can invest from here if you are not emotional about losing it. Never invest by force but invest as much money as you can afford to throw away, you may make a lot of profit at one time and may also lose. You should invest only the amount of money that you can afford from your point of view consistently, or else you will force yourself to never invest. However, if you are investing for long term then it must be sustained and once you can get huge profit from it then hold it.

Surely guys can figure out various kinds of timelines or other BTC accumulation goals that they might have in such a way that might cause them to convert from being in BTC accumulation mode to BTC maintenance mode and then maybe further down the line to BTC liquidation mode.. .. even though surely many of us consider that there are likely ways to sustainably withdraw from BTC, so there may well not be circumstances in which any of the longer term investors would need to completely liquidate or cash out from their BTC, absent some specific circumstances such as death or other emergencies like that in which there might not be any plans to pass down wealth to others.

Quote from: MusaPk on Today at 02:02:24 PM

Quote from: JayJuanGee on May 28, 2024, 05:21:50 AM

We have to go with where we are at right now.

Agree, we can't go back in time.

Quote from: JayJuanGee on May 28, 2024, 05:21:50 AM

he cannot go back to December 2018 and he cannot even go back to December of 2022..

We can't go back even one second. What I was trying to say is that there were times bitcoin goes down and out, there were speculations that Bitcoin going back to some extraordinary values but that never happen. We can't go back to 2018 and 2022 but we can learn from history that what happens to Bitcoin once it goes down to such low.

Ok. no problem.. BTC prices have a chance to go down, but so what? how are you going to make your plan to account for such possibility?

BTC prices also have a chance of never going down below $67k ever again. Are you prepared for that scenario too?

There are ways to attempt to prepare yourself for either scenario because you do not really know, however, you do know that there have been times in BTC's history that it never goes back down to some price point that it had previously been hovering at. Do you need me to give you examples of that so that you can adequately and/or sufficiently account for those kinds of possibilities, too?

Your emphasis on the down scenarios causes me to speculate that you may well be spending too many energies thinking about such a thing that may or may not end up happening.. ... and even if it does end up happening, if a person has a cashflow then surely he would be able to just continue to DCA, but yeah, if he had invested $5k into bitcoin in the last 22-ish months (going by your registration date), and he continues to buy around $50 per week, then how much value might he be holding back to buy on dips? Maybe he set orders from $66k down to $40k to buy $50 worth of bitcoin every time the BTC price drops (if it drops) (which adds up to around $1,300 ($50 x 26)... does he need to do more than that?.. how much can he afford to hold back, if any?

Maybe already having had gotten up to $5k invested over nearly 2 years does not really feel like enough, but he has his own constrictions, and maybe if he feels that he already bought enough BTC in the $60k to $70k price range, he does not want to place any additional orders in that range (besides his knowing that every week he is buying $50 worth of bitcoin and if the BTC price is in the $60k to $70k range, then he buys in that range, so maybe his BTC buy orders start at $60k and they might still go down to $40k-ish, but they end up being $65 each ($1,300/20) rather than the previous considered amount of $50 each.. And at the same time, the guy might consider that going down to $40k has pretty damned low odds, but questioning if he still might feel better to keep his buy orders active.. just in case, even though he believes that the odds remain pretty low that the BTC price is ever going to go down to $40k and he does not even believe the odds are great for the BTC price to go below $55k, but he still considers for his own state of psychology that it is better for him to maintain those BTC buy orders all the way down to $40k... just in case.

Quote from: MusaPk on Today at 02:02:24 PM

Quote from: JayJuanGee on May 28, 2024, 05:21:50 AM

He has to take responsibility for his own actions and outcome regarding whether and how to invest and whether to put it into bitcoin or somewhere else.. Is that difficult? If so, how?

Not difficult at all. It's your money and you have to figure out whether to invest it, save it or do some other stuff. You make profit, its yours and vice versa.

In your earlier post, you seemed to have had suggested that there were difficulties involved with figuring out allocations.. Sure, everyone has to figure out his/her particulars, but the skills should be within our grasp to be able to figure out those kinds of matters and even to improve upon our choices with the passage of time and the more that we practice putting our preferences into a series of ongoing actions.

Quote from: MusaPk on Today at 02:02:24 PM

Quote from: JayJuanGee on May 28, 2024, 02:30:10 PM

I think that you are still getting at the option of whether a lump sum is even available... so if there is a question whether a lump sum is available, then DCA makes more sense, but if a lump sum is available, then for sure there are more options, but it still might make a certain amount of sense to spread out the lump sum rather than investing right away

I have posted scenarios of Lump Sum and DCA over a long period of time. We can't predict what will happen in future but based on past data there is clear evidence that Lump Sum surpasses DCA if we go for long term like 4 or more years.

Yeah but so what?

Do we have a lump sum available, and if so what are we going to do about it? If we do not have a lump sum available, then we figure out various aspects of our disposable income to figure out how much of our disposable income we want to put into bitcoin and on what kind of a timeline. I personally like the idea of weekly investing, but yeah, there may be some points during our process of already buying BTC regularly (such as $50 per week), and then all of a sudden we figure out that we have $2k extra that we can invest into bitcoin.. so then at that point we have the option to figure out what are we going to do with that $2k extra? Are we going to buy BTC right away with all of is or some of it? maybe we might divide it into 3 parts of $666 each so that we can put equal parts into DCA, lump sum and buying on dip. Otherwise, maybe we decide to ONLY divide into two parts, and lump sum buy right away with $1k and dedicate the other $1k for buying on dips (since we already have a DCA system in place.. but yeah, if we already have a buying on dip system established, then that could affect how much we might want to add to the buying on dip system or to otherwise adjust how we want to actually put our extra $2k into some kind of a practice).

Quote from: MusaPk on Today at 02:02:24 PM

Quote from: JayJuanGee on May 28, 2024, 02:30:10 PM

and if we go back to the example of someone who has an extra $3k... then there are so many ways to consider the matter, and it would seem short-sighted to completely ignore the availability of the $3k and to just DCA and buy on dips with it, since that would be presuming that the BTC price is either going to remain flat or to dip, so the more practical way of preparing for all price directions would be to use some of that $3k to buy right away, yet it is still a question of how much to use to prepare for up rather than preparing for down or sideways.. and each person has to live with their own decision, since there is not really any one correct answer, even though some answers (or approaches) seem more logical and reasonable than others... but people can still vary in their reason and also we might not completely know all of the reasons (the 9 individual factors) of another person without really knowing the person.

I do agree that one has to make a start from somewhere and has to make decision on it's own that how much will be good enough in the start. Just like a thousand miles journey start with a single step, Bitcoin investment journey start with your first investment. After you make your first investment, one gets an idea about how to proceed further i.e. how much to DCA and when it's good time to buy on dips.

Personally, I don't tend to like the idea of just randomly holding some amount for some random dip that might or might not happen, and I personally like to already dedicate the amounts of the buys for the dip in regards to specific amounts at various intervals all the way down to some bottom amount.. so I personally don't like the idea of "playing it by ear" in regards to any buy on dips that I might consider making.

Sure from time to time there might be some money that comes in that is not really allocated towards anything, and I suppose that extra money might be considered as a kind of float, since it has not been ear tagged for any particular kind of category of thing, whether investment, consumption or just vaguely cushioning for some uncertainty in cashflows that might exist from time to time.

From my perspective, anyone who just holds some value on the side (just in case there is a dip), and has not really decided at what price points he might be buying is probably a bit lost in terms of his own setting forth parameters for his BTC buys.. like a lost puppy... hahahahahaha.. but yeah.. whatever, you do you.. I understand that there are people who like to play matters by ear, which seems more like a waiting strategy rather than an active strategy, but there could be justifications for the employment of such strategies, including that there is a certain need for a float in the budget, and the amount is largely being held as a float... but yeah, sometimes we also might need some specific examples too.. if we are trying to categorize what funds might be being used for or why they are being kept in the way that they are being kept.