Quote from: SuperBitMan on August 18, 2024, 01:19:03 PM

Quote from: JayJuanGee on August 18, 2024, 07:30:42 AM

Quote from: Franctoshi on August 17, 2024, 06:41:48 PM

Quote from: SOKO-DEKE on August 14, 2024, 06:21:32 PM

Quote from: EarnOnVictor on August 13, 2024, 06:15:41 AM

Trading is risky just like gambling but trading is nothing compared to gambling. In gambling, you will always need luck, but in trading, you can solely depend on your expertise and flourish in it if you know your way out. But the issue with people is that they do not know how to trade but are just forcing things, this is why you can even compare trading with gambling Still, what I agree with you on is that people can resort to investing instead of trading as a less risky option. But it still has to be strictly engaged, otherwise, an investment could be silently more dangerous than trading at times. DCA is also a very good investment style but we should not let it enter our heads as a safe haven for investment as it on this thread. The right application is key.

People are comparing trading to gambling due to the high risk they both involve. A lot of people are losing money in trading just as they are also losing in gambling, and that is why they always compare them. Even gambling is not fully based on luck; if someone can analyze it well, there is always a better opportunity to win than for those who just want to fully rely on luck. Let's know that we have different types of trading; some types of trading are akin to gambling.

Quote

I agree with you on this, gambling isn't just all about luck alone, but a combination of knowledge and experience for you to have a better wining rate.
And yes, trading is risky, but way more controlled than you would have control over gambling, Basically, those you would see complain about trading being as gambling are these categories of traders who might have in one way or the other had gambled before, and it didn't work out for them or maybe currently are into gambling but has come into the trading world with a gambling mindset, where you have them gambling the market and calling it trading, lol.

Trading can devolve into gambling, and sure there are likely more conservative trading methods that might not really be gambling, so there are not exactly bright lines in regards to the various categories, of investing versus trading versus gambling but they might sort of be on a spectrum in which many of us might not agree upon the thresholds upon which one of the practices might fall into being the next one.

Trading involves prediction and gambling also involves prediction, there's risk in trading and there's risk in gambling, no prediction in trading is 100 percent correct and no prediction in gambling is 100 percent correct also.

I am suggesting that investing, trading and gambling are on a spectrum, which means that even if some folks might consider them to have some kind of strict lines, the categories might overlap and sometimes could evolve or devolve into others, depending on how they are put into practice. and some of us might well define them differently (which we might not agree upon the categories, but if we describe what we are talking about, we can at least communicate why we might consider one thing to fall in one category or another). Personally, I think that a lot of kinds of trading can devolve into gambling, and the same is true when it comes to getting involved in shitcoins, since frequently with shitcoins you need to figure out when, how or under what circumstances you are going to get in and out of them, so it may well not be easy to characterize involvement in shitcoins as investing, even though some folks will describe their involvement in shitcoins and even their involvement in trading as investing... So there can sometimes be definitional differences that exist that might be in need of clarifying in order to attempt to communicate more clearly, to the extent that any of us might be trying to explain or understand these matters or even attempt to figure out our own approach to whether we want to involve ourselves in trading or in shitcoins instead of having more of an investment approach that might mostly be focused on accumulating bitcoin and perhaps limited involvement in either trading or in shitcoins...

So there could be ways that someone is involved in trading and/or even in shitcoins, but they might have their systems established so clearly that they are not really engaging in gambling, but still sometimes there might be behind the scene factors, even when someone is studying some shitcoin, but then not necessarily realizing some of the underlying forces that might involve the price dynamics of the shitcoin, so how much time, money and energy that folks put into some kind of shitcoins and/or trading might cause them to cross over into gambling without their agreeing to their having had fallen into gambling - and so some of us might even consider any involvement in shitcoins as gambling, but then it also depends on degrees sometimes too.

So for example if a guy has $300 per week of disposable income and he invests half of it into bitcoin and the other half is kept in various forms of cash, for personal expenses or maybe buying on the dip or other kinds of flexibility that he might have in his spending, then maybe we might consider him to be a pretty conservative investor, even though some folks might consider that he is taking too many risks by using half of his disposable income to buy bitcoin.

Another possibility could be that the guy with $300 per week of disposable income invests $100 into bitcoin, $150 into shitcoins and keeps $50 for various cash reserves, and even though the second guy is still keeping his budget within his disposable income, yet based on his behaviors, some of us might consider his behaviors to be too much devolving into gambling.

So there are all kinds of variations, including that some guys might strictly buy bitcoin and they do not trade bitcoin and/or shitcoins, but then others might have various forms of involvement in shitcoins. I remember having several interactions with forum members in 2016, 2017 and 2018 who would have 90% of their activities in shitcoins and trading and hold less than 10% of their value in bitcoin, and frequently, I would suggest that those guys should have way more than a majority of their value in just accumulating value in bitcoin, even as high as 70% to 90% in bitcoin and to really attempt to limit the amount that they were fucking around with shitcoins, but from my perspective, surely some guys cannot control themselves and they get caught up in the pump and dump hopium of shitcoins and they even considered bitcoin to be old-tech and without much upside potential (seemingly buying into either various shitcoin talking points or even considering that they are better off to try to trade bitcoin rather than focusing on buying bitcoin and accumulating it)... So sometimes it can a bit of time to see how the allocation choices play out in order to appreciate whether the trading (or shitcoin involvement) that had been taking place had actually devolved into gambling rather than investing or even attempting to employ more conservative trading strategies that might still be considered to be responsible level of trading - and surely we might not even agree on what level of trading is responsible whether it is acceptable to trade with 10%, 20%, 50%, 70% or some other amount of the value of your bitcoin holdings in order for such activity to be considered as reaching the level of gambling rather than an acceptable level of trading... which personally, I believe that bitcoin is such a great investment that a maximum of 10% of its value would be acceptably allocated to trading and/or shitcoins, but surely others are way more loosey goosey in their own perceptions and definitions of what they might consider to be acceptable levels of trading and/or shitcoin involvement.

Quote from: SuperBitMan on August 18, 2024, 01:19:03 PM

I think this two are the same but are done in a different platform with different names.

I would think that most of us should attempt to figure out the difference between trading and/or gambling in order to have our own threshold levels that we might consider to be acceptable based on our own financial and psychological circumstances, and we do not necessarily need to agree on such definitions of what might be acceptable levels, but if we just consider all forms of trading as gambling, then we might be too strict in our definitions since it seems that each of us should be able to establish our own levels in order to differentiate, even if others might not agree and even if we might have our own complications in regards to how we reach such differentiations.

Quote from: SuperBitMan on August 18, 2024, 01:19:03 PM

No matter how one twist it or no matter the method used in trading the end point is placing a prediction and hoping it comes out as predicted and that's same thing done in gambling.

Even though I agree with you that a lot of forms of trading (even if we are ONLY talking about bitcoin and not even involving the getting involved in shitcoins) may well fairly easily devolve into gambling, I still believe that trading and gambling are not the same thing and it is too strict (and/or sloppy) in thinking to NOT be able to differentiate potential levels of acceptable trading that would not devolve into being considered gambling. Surely there are quite a few folks who have come to bitcoin and who have learned that accumulating bitcoin over years and years and years tends to be a good way to build up a bitcoin portfolio, so they may well NOT engage in any trading at all while they are buiilding up the size of their BTC stash over a whole bitcoin cycle or even longer than a whole cycle, yet even if some of the earlier accumulators might include some reasonable level of trading within their bitcoin accumulation approach, even though some of us might disagree with their approach to bitcoin accumulation tactics, yet they could still establish some trading systems that seem to be fairly reasonable and not necessarily devolving into a gambling category. One of the problems that I have with guys who are new to accumulating bitcoin to sell bitcoin in order to try to accumulate more bitcoin is that the whole approach seems a bit illogical, since it seems to me that the best assured way to continue to build up your bitcoin stash is to stick with ONLY buying bitcoin for maybe a whole cycle or even a cycle and a half or more before even considering any kind of selling technique as a way to hope to accumulate more bitcoin..

So personally, I believe that any time anyone includes selling of bitcoin as an attempted means to accumulate bitcoin, then they should not expect to be able to buy bitcoin back from any of the amount that they sold, so in that regard, there can frequently seem to be a bit of futility with any selling technique that also includes ongoing buying, so why would any of us want to sell bitcoin if we are still regularly buying rather than just sticking with ONLY buying until we have reach a decently large bitcoin stack size in which selling might start to at least make some sense.. rather than buying and selling at the same time? So yeah, sometimes persons in their early bitcoin accumulation stages might employ logic that might not seem to make sense to some of us longer term bitcoin holders who believe that we have already reached higher levels of BTC accumulation in which we feel that we have more logically reached levels where our selling of bitcoin at various points of time make sense and we are not necessarily engaging in buying and selling at the same time... .. we get into more of a maintenance stage of our bitcoin investment journey rather than falling into more of an accumulation stage....so it seems the guy who considers himself to be more passed his BTC accumulation stage will end up having more options for selling (and without engaging in gambling) as compared with the guy who is way earlier in his bitcoin accumulation journey.

Quote from: EarnOnVictor on August 18, 2024, 01:55:01 PM

Quote from: JayJuanGee on August 16, 2024, 03:43:21 PM

Quote from: Promocodeudo on August 16, 2024, 08:32:37 AM

Quote from: EarnOnVictor on August 13, 2024, 06:15:41 AM

Quote from: BABY SHOES on August 12, 2024, 06:06:20 PM

Futures trading is similar to gambling, don't do it if you don't want to lose especially if you don't have the skills.

If you want to be safer then it is better to invest, you will not lose as long as you do not sell halfway and accumulate with the DCA method this is one of the best ways to collect bitcoin you will not think harder like trading by investing you will be a little calmer.

Trading is risky just like gambling but trading is nothing compared to gambling. In gambling, you will always need luck, but in trading, you can solely depend on your expertise and flourish in it if you know your way out. But the issue with people is that they do not know how to trade but are just forcing things, this is why you can even compare trading with gambling Still, what I agree with you on is that people can resort to investing instead of trading as a less risky option. But it still has to be strictly engaged, otherwise, an investment could be silently more dangerous than trading at times. DCA is also a very good investment style but we should not let it enter our heads as a safe haven for investment as it on this thread. The right application is key.

I can't comprend this, how did you come to the conclusion that investment is more risky than trading at time as you said, personally I don't concur to this notion of yours, lets get this straight, how would someone thats doing his or her investment gradually and continuously with DCA method be involved in risk than his opponent that concentrate in trading that we all know that has a high level of uncertainty surrounding it, I already know that no matter how experienced a trader is, he or she must lose but in bitcoin imvestment hence your are an investor that understand that the investment is meant for a long-term, the depreciation of the price wouldnt be a problem for you instead it will be an opportunity to buy at a lesser amount, in trading when you lose, you lose all the money that use on a particular trading sesion but in investment you cant lose, your asset may depreciate to an extent and also start appreciating once the market pump. In all round I don't see where investment can be more dangerous than trading, the risk involved in investment will always be lesser and manageable than that of trading.

I am glad that several forum members are not agreeing to EarnOnVictor's framework, which surely seems misleading in terms of seeming to want to compare trading and investing in bitcoin as if they have similar kinds of tradeoffs.

Lol...your statement is actually funny to me and I don't expect many people here to align with my view even as some others align with it. This could only mean that I am not the trader/investor just starting in this crypto-era, the hypes and generality of many things crypto are mere noise to me, I trade/invest with experience.

I doubt that I am trying to be very funny. Sure, there is nothing wrong with gaining experience and attempting to present your various experientially based ideas with other forum members, but you frequently present various convoluted ideas in which you seem to be suggesting that various trading techniques that you employ would be fairly easily replicable by other forum members and even seeming to presume that there would be some level of basic knowledge that any person has that could be employed to increase his chances of being more profitable by following some kind of a trading technique rather than employing techniques that mostly focusing on accumulating and holding bitcoin (rather than trying to trade it). From my perspective, those come off as pretty large assumptions that are not backed up by factual evidence, even if you are frequently asserting them to be the case based on your supposed profitable track record.

Even your use of the term crypto should cause any of us to question the extent that you are able to present your ideas clearly in regards to understanding the differences between bitcoin and shitcoins, and to even suggest that there is some kind of a crypto investing/trading that practice that could be employed comes off as overly vague and potentially even intentionally misleading.

It seems to me that if we are in bitcoin threads, then even if we want to talk about shitcoins, we might want to at least talk about our potential involvement in shitcoins in comparison to our involvement in bitcoin, and it becomes quite problematic to just lump bitcoin into such "crypto" category and fail/refuse to sufficiently/adequately clarfiy what you are talking about when you are making such reference to bitcoin without really specifying what role bitcoin has in your vague reference to "crypto" as if "crypto" were an actual meaningful category of discussion for anyone who actually knows about bitcoin and its relationship to various shitcoins that may or may not be employing affinity scams in their relationship to bitcoin.

So if you are in a bitcoin thread, you surely would be coming off as vague potentially disingenuine if you are describing crypto as if it were some kind of a thing that guys should be investing and/or trading. and that such trading that you are referring to is not devolving into gambling.. since you already have come out a few times in regards to convoluting the investing, trading and gambling categories to even proclaim that they are all variations of the same thing .. which does not really help that any of us should have confidence in your presentation of these various matters in ways that inspire some of us to believe that you know what you are talking about... at least sufficiently enough in a way that you might be able to share some of your supposed profitable techniques with other forum members.

Quote from: EarnOnVictor on August 18, 2024, 01:55:01 PM

Look around you, how many people are truly rooted in trading/investment among the users on the Bitcointalk, "by their fruit you shall know them."

Why is that even a relevant question? You think that we are here to attempt to show how profitable that we might be in comparing our various techniques?

I would think that many forum members are at various levels of experience, and surely bitcoin adoption is continuing to expand, so we are always having newer members who are likely in the earliest of stages of establishing their bitcoin investment portfolio. I am not going to presume that newer forum members are going to be benefitted by trading or even getting involved into shitcoin rather than building some kind of a bitcoin portfolio first and even learning about bitcoin first, even though surely there are a decent amount of newer forum members who get lured (and or distracted) into shitcoins and/or trading rather than working on building up their bitcoin holdings first...so yeah, I surely could take a whole cycle or more to just start to build up a decently sized bitcoin holdings in order to potentially consider getting involved in shitcoins and/or trading to the extent that either of those distractions are even going to be helpful to even a person who had already spent time learning about bitcoin and/or building up his bitcoin holdings first.

I understand that you believe that newbies should get involved in shitcoins and/or trading early on in regards to their getting involved in bitcoin, and surely, our perspectives differ in that regard, and so your assessment in regards to the extent to which forum members are making progress in their bitcoin (and/or shitcoin) journeys is likely to differ too.

By the way, yeah, I agree that even longer term forum members are likely going to have differing levels of success in their bitcoin accumulation process or perhaps in other ways that their level of "crypto" success might be measured, yet again, if we are measuring success with vague references to "crypto" or even implying that dollar/fiat profits are relevant to the framing of supposed "success," then I might not be wanting to go to similar seemingly vague places that you seem to want to go in terms of your attempts to characterize whether forum members are being successful in their involvement in bitcoin (or you want to take it further in to measuring dollars/fiat profits or maybe measuring crypto mumbo jumbo as if getting involved in learning about various cryptos or learning trading techniques would be ways that forum members might measure their profits or their successfully benefiting in their forum interactions).

Quote from: EarnOnVictor on August 18, 2024, 01:55:01 PM

Needless to say, most traders/investors are losing their money, which could only mean that they are doing what a few who are profiting are not doing. Due to this, what those little ones who are profiting say could be like a taboo to the majority (losers), and that which they (majority/losers) perceive as a taboo is actually what the successful few are doing to make the success.

Again, vague characterizations of what is profitable or how to measure profits and even whether profits should be a focus for folks who might be engaging in longer term accumulation of something like bitcoin that might take them more than a whole cycle before they might start to feel that they are making some reasonable progress in terms of growing their bitcoin holdings.

Quote from: EarnOnVictor on August 18, 2024, 01:55:01 PM

I don't follow the majority, I know what I am saying so am not bothered, bro!

Hopefully no one is following any kind of majority, since each person should be attempting to tailorize his approach to bitcoin accumulation within his own financial and/or psychological considerations, including attempting to account for his 9 individual factors. If we account for our individual factors, it is quite likely that we would be tailoring our approach to our own circumstances, so even if we might have a lot of similar circumstances to someone else, we still would be following our own approach rather than merely following what others are doing. so yeah, we might follow attempts at good cashflow management and making sure that we are investing within our discretionary income and establishing various kinds of backup funds (such as emergency funds and reserve funds), but still the details of how we apply our discretionary funds and whether we choose to trade or involve ourselves in shitcoins (including what proportion to do that) are likely still going to vary from person to person, even if some of us might have similar kinds of approaches and perhaps even inclinations to mostly buy and accumulate rather than to attempt trading.

By the way, I find that sometimes you make some decent points, but when you start to want to characterize yourself as smarter than everyone else and suggesting that you have some kinds of winning strategies that are better than most others, and you are pretty vague in regards to what your supposedly replicable strategies are, then I doubt that anyone is becoming inspired by your conclusory proclamations that trading is better than investing.

Quote from: Roseline492 on August 18, 2024, 02:07:36 PM

Quote from: Egii Nna on August 17, 2024, 10:22:33 PM

let me clarify something for you if you didn’t understand about bitcoin trading and why you view it as something that is very hard. It's just because you find it hard to conduct adequate and deep research, and to find this research is definitely hard. I can’t lie, as a trader, that it depends on prediction and probability. Did you still know that those profits that you will courteously get from each trading for that interval of 4–10 years will be more than the profit that a bitcoin investor will gain in 4 or 10 years? If you think I am lying, go and make a rough estimation, and you will see my point.

I do not agree with you on that because there is no way you would tell me that the profit you would make from trading in the next 4 to 10 years time will be higher than what we the long term holders will achieve in the future, I seriously doubt it, so perhaps if you are judging from other traders success to compare it to holders you are obviously making a mistake because you are clouded by the profit to realize the risk behind trading, actually from your statement I understand that profit seeking is really one of the things that differentiate long term holders and traders mindset which is why traders could not realize that holding Bitcoin is actually the best investment because not just the profit you would get after holding but also the feeling of realization that your investment is secured.

On a personal level, I am not even very opposed to the idea of taking some of your bitcoin investment (perhaps up to 10% of it), and using that limited amount for trading and to practice (and/or learn) trading techniques. Many times traders end up being too greedy or just devolving into believing that they need more and more and more capital, probably even devolving into such thinking before they have honed their techniques, so there surely are not too many traders who can actually boast better profits over 5-12 years or more as compared to someone who just errored on the side of buying and accumulating bitcoin over that same period of time... Surely, the shorter the period of time, the more likely a trader might be able to brag about being more profitable than an investor, yet the longer the time period, the less and less likely that his results are going to be meaningfully enough greater as to justify all the time and/or stress that he had gone through in regards to employing his trading system. Sure, there could be some value to learn some of the trading techniques and to attempt to be more in touch with various BTC price dynamics, based on trading practices, yet there still might not be any need to put more than 10% of your Bitcoin holdings at risk in order to play around with (and/or learn about) bitcoin through the employment of trading techniques.

Quote from: Roseline492 on August 18, 2024, 02:07:36 PM

Quote from: Franctoshi on August 17, 2024, 06:41:48 PM

trading is risky, but way more controlled than you would have control over gambling, Basically, those you would see complain about trading being as gambling are these categories of traders who might have in one way or the other had gambled before, and it didn't work out for them or maybe currently are into gambling but has come into the trading world with a gambling mindset, where you have them gambling the market and calling it trading, lol.

Trading is the same as gambling and there is no two ways about it, though we no that they work differently but the major aspects we are all looking at is the risks and uncertainty they both have in common that's why we classified trading to be on the same category with gambling, perhaps is because of the passion you either have for gambling or trading that makes you feel they are not the same, so have it in mind that anything that involves you risking your money for a higher return is indirectly considered to be gambling since the chances of making it is low.

I largely agree with you that trading has more execution risks than investing, and most likely an overwhelming amount of trading does end up devolving into some form of gambling, yet at the same time, there are gradations with anything, so it does become a bit problematic to proclaim that all forms of trading is the same as gambling. and even within gambling, there are some gambling kinds of games that are more games of chance(luck) and other games that have some skills that can affect the results, so not all trading is the same and not all gambling is the same either.. and the same thing is true with investing, there are some ways of investing that are more risky than others depending on allocation choices, but also depending on ways of balancing out the aggressiveness of the investment approach... so an investor who does not have an emergency fund and who might be spending high levels of his discretionary income or even going beyond his discretionary income (purposefully or inadvertently) may also be devolving into a gambling kind of approach to his investment and engaging in way more risks than he might otherwise need to do if he were to take a more measured approach. So there are ways of being aggressive without overdoing it, and sometimes it might not be clear that a guy had been overly doing his level of aggressiveness until some kind of an emergency (or quasi-unexpected) event happens, and then he finds himself in a situation in which he has to sell some or all of his bitcoin investment at a time that was completely outside of his own choosing.

Quote from: Egii Nna on August 18, 2024, 08:41:49 PM

But there is an economic fact that says the higher the risk, the higher the chance of profit, and the lower the risk, the lower the chances of profit, who is vice versa to lost, and in this both bitcoin trading has higher risk in times of loss, why bitcoin investment has lower risk in times of loss.

Even though there is truth in regards to risk taking having potentials for greater profits rather than sticking to conservative practices, it still is a pretty faulty way of thinking about how to allocate, time, energy and/or financial resources. Shitcoiners tend to think like that including coming to conclusions that investing in bitcoin is not risky enough, so therefore, they either have to add some shitcoins to their investment portfolio or they have to employ trading techniques, so there tends to be certain level of greed and also failing/refusal to recognize and appreciating the already existing upside asymmetric aspect of bitcoin... so they want more and more and more rather than appreciating bitcoin for what it is... including that bitcoin is not a risk free investment/asset, either... so in that regard, there is already quite a bit of risks with bitcoin in a lot of different areas, even including figuring out ways to self-custody it and even to keep up with those kinds of changing matters, and so there continue to be beliefs that there are needs to even take more risks by either getting involved in shitcoins or getting involved in trading in order to increase the potential for such already existing upside asymmetric bet (referring to bitcoin) to become more likely to be profitable .. blah blah blah..

In other words, anyone in bitcoin or getting into bitcoin already has identified and is "in" one of the best investments available if not the best investment available and he further concludes that he needs to add even more risk in order to be satisfied with his already good choice to build his bitcoin holdings... I doubt that any of our bitcoin holdings become more valuable by putting them more at risk, even though surely some guys will still profit from putting their bitcoin holdings at more risk, and yet again, we get into gambling, since we should recognize that we already have a winner in our hands, so we seem to not to be able to control ourselves in regards to trying to make it more of a winner than it already is, which then we end up running the risk of losing a hand that was already a winning hand.

Quote from: Egii Nna on August 18, 2024, 08:41:49 PM

That is why many people tend to see it as the easiest. But all you need to have is higher patience and another source of income that will sustain you in order not to break down your investment, while in bitcoin trading you need very high knowledge, luck, and patience, so there are different you just have to stake the risk you can afford.

Quote from: Obim34 on August 18, 2024, 02:42:26 PM

Quote from: Egii Nna on August 17, 2024, 10:22:33 PM

let me clarify something for you if you didn’t understand about bitcoin trading and why you view it as something that is very hard. It's just because you find it hard to conduct adequate and deep research, and to find this research is definitely hard. I can’t lie, as a trader, that it depends on prediction and probability. Did you still know that those profits that you will courteously get from each trading for that interval of 4–10 years will be more than the profit that a bitcoin investor will gain in 4 or 10 years? If you think I am lying, go and make a rough estimation, and you will see my point.

I know you subjected to your own points of view and reasoning but no need using some terms which can lure more people into trading which you should have realized the effects at the early stages. Trading is profitable (undeniably) but considering that traders can never be perfect enough to always go in at all times and not take any loses from their trade. Trading comes with loss and profits which the trader is entitled to but what is said to distinguish between a professional and just anyone trading is the ability of making more profits than losses, now comparing to Bitcoin investment, anyone can buy and hold without any confirmation of professionalism involved. Bitcoin investment gives without taking, the amount of Bitcoin held doesn't changes and perfectly increases in dollar value as long the investor continous to hold. The profits are made considering the variability of the Buy and Sell order, so anyone investing understands the power of long term holding which guarantees good return of investment, more likely to be greater than those who traded for same period.

You have a point, but my main point was not to brainwash anyone. I know bitcoin trading has a higher risk. What I was trying to explain there was that those there are jumping into investment without having a strong stand. Can they be patient to withstand holding for 4-10 years?

You seem to be talking about position size, so if someone already comes into bitcoin and they are already planning that they are investing 4-10 years or longer, then they accumulate bitcoin with that kind of an idea in mind, and so they may well not know exactly where they are going to be 4-10 years or longer after they started investing into bitcoin, yet every time they buy more bitcoin, they should be considering their new added amount as having a 4-10 year timeline or longer. At some point during their BTC accumulation journey, they might start to consider that they have accumulate enough bitcoin or they are getting close enough to having had accumulated enough bitcoin that they might either slow down in their bitcoin accumulation that they might either stop buying or at some point they might start to include selling into their maintenance stage, yet if you are a long term investor, then it makes little sense that you would spend 4-10 years or longer buying bitcoin, then you would go to immediately selling your bitcoin, especially since there is no real evidence (at least not at this time) that there is any better place to be putting your time, money and energies, yet of course, bitcoin holders are free to choose the extent to which they might allocate to other investments and/or use some of their bitcoin for consumption purposes or even just have a period of HODLing their bitcoin after they might have already concluded that they had mostly already accumulated a sufficient quantity of bitcoin... Those kinds of assessment are not necessarily locked in but have to be reassessed from time to time and also hopefully accounting for various individual circumstances (even including all of the 9 individual factors that should always be present in terms of assessing and reassessing from time to time.. and even adjusting based on some potentially changing circumstances and/or valuations).

Quote from: Egii Nna on August 18, 2024, 08:41:49 PM

Moreover, I am not against bitcoin investment because I am also an investor but am emphasising having knowledge about trading rather than depending fully on bitcoin investment, even though I know that bitcoin investment is the easiest one to engage in.

At least you're not totally a dummy. Cheesy

Though surely it may be possible that you might have been giving too much emphasis to suggest that there is value in trading without really recognizing and acknowledging some of the execution risks that should be obviously more complex for any newbie to get into bitcoin and to go straight into fucking around with trading. It seems that some of the trading advocates (perhaps even you Egii Nna) promote trading as if it were some kind of a basic bitcoin approach that everyone needs to learn from the start, but then when push comes to shove, later on you concede that trading is more complicated than investing, so then it becomes questionable why the fuck you seemed to have been promoting trading so heavily when you actually acknowledge that it is quite a bit more complicated and difficult to execute rather than first getting some kind of a footing in regarding to building up some kind of a bitcoin stash prior to even attempting to play around with the employment of trading strategies.

Quote from: Egii Nna on August 18, 2024, 09:37:20 PM

Quote from: I_Anime on August 18, 2024, 09:22:44 PM

Quote from: Egii Nna on August 18, 2024, 08:41:49 PM

One thing I believe in this life is that whatever you believe in that is how you will view it, so to me, if you can view a trader as someone who has not been patient, I won’t see anything wrong with it, and me supporting trading doesn’t still mean that I don’t invest in bitcoin. All I want people to understand is that the main reason why they see trading this hard is because it has a higher risk than investment because I have tested both and I know how it feels.

Well there's no problem in one trading especially when one still focus on accumulating while trading. The reason why most time we don't encourage trading is because most people go into trading hoping to get rich quick without having a proper learning phase, they may endup wasting valuable resources due to having half-size knowledge. So trading is not something that one will just go into one need to take he or her time to build a better knowledge on how trading works, before hopping on it .

But when comes to investing in bitcoin one don't need to spend much time in accumulating much knowledge first before going into it they can , just start their bitcoin journey aslong they have a proper basic knowledge on how bitcoin works, so that they can know how to purchase and keep it safe while they accumulate and hodl .

That is the best because I also said that when you want to go into bitcoin trading, the main thing you need to know is that you have to be a good researcher, and at the same time, you should know that you are trying to jump into a very high risk. So you have to be more focused, but if you need the easier and more related to perceive income, then investing is your best to recommend for someone that is new to the space and others that are occupied with other jobs. because all what bitcoin investment needs most is your patience to hold, but for bitcoin trading it needs more than only patience because there are a lot of ups and downs in bitcoin trading.

Your first posts did not really say that. You seemed to be promoting trading as some kind of a thing that beginners should do, and so now you are kind of backing off of your earlier emphasis, and there is nothing wrong with that... as long as you are appreciating that many times beginners can get lured into trading (and even into shitcoins) because they seem some posts of seemingly more experienced forum members, so some of the members who are promoting trading will fail/refusing to really recognize and appreciate the ways that so many newbie bitcoiners could become vulnerable to going down too much of a gambling path or even thinking that they have to gamble rather than spending a decent amount of time just buying bitcoin and getting used to various aspects of bitcoin and perhaps even the newbies who really want to learn about trading, they still might be way better off to spend 6 months or so to get their finances in order and also to spend time accumulating some bitcoin first, and then if they still want to play around with trading and start to learn it, then they might start out small and even limit themselves to no more than 10% the size of the bitcoin that they accumulated. .and really be careful to not be wanting to cheat in order to do more than 10% by engaging on various skewed calculations so that they can employ more and more capital into either trading and/or shitcoins..

and I am not sure which is worse.. attempting to trade bitcoin or trying to use shitcoins as a means to try to accumulate more bitcoin, they are both pretty problematic, yet I understand that sometimes people can learn more when they actively attempt to do something rather than just reading about it, so there is some level of practicality that involves a person wanting to learn through action and experience rather than through just reading about it, but they still should be able to control (or limit themselves) in regards to how much of their time, energies and capital they the are putting at risk in order to learn through those kinds of active mechanisms.. including that if they can recognize that they might be motivated more by greed rather than by wanting to learn, then they might need to be able to figure out that kind of a motivation as being dangerous within themselves, and surely greed it not an easy thing for any of us to control since many of us would like to increase our profits and to increase our likelihood for profits, but in the end, sometimes when we are newbies, we might not even realize that we are engaging in activities to lessen our likelihood for profits rather than increasing our likelihood for profits, so frequently newbies can get lead into wrong ways of thinking about what they are doing and the likelihood for what they believe to have had been their investment that they had transitioned into gambling by their own conduct.

Quote from: EarnOnVictor on Today at 07:45:39 AM

Quote from: JayJuanGee on August 18, 2024, 07:30:42 AM

Trading can devolve into gambling, and sure there are likely more conservative trading methods that might not really be gambling, so there are not exactly bright lines in regards to the various categories, of investing versus trading versus gambling but they might sort of be on a spectrum in which many of us might not agree upon the thresholds upon which one of the practices might fall into being the next one.

You have a point, though you did not explain it well. Trading and Gambling are often mistaken because of the risks involved in the two and the way traders/gamblers find themselves in a situation to choose an option that can either make them win or lose. Most people forget that the modality of the two risky activities is different. If you are trading, you are actually doing Business, this is because you are buying and selling, and everything anyone could apply to regular business (caution, patience, management etc) can also be applied to online trading. The only difference is that you are conducting the online trading electronically and the market is so sensitive, dynamic and volatile. If you buy when you were supposed to sell/wait, you will lose. this is not different from buying and selling physical goods in the market.

I might not have fleshed out what I mean bey trading versus gambling falls on a spectrum, and I did not even include investing into my spectrum description, yet any of the practices of investing or trading could devolve into gambling if the employed techniques are sloppy and without a certain level of conservatism.... and surely there are ways that either investing or trading could devolve into gambling, there are way more ways that trading could devolve into gambling than investing, since there are so many more ways, in trading, that the trading system could be structured in such a way that it is not sufficiently accounting for bitcoin's short term price direction uncertainties. Surely, one of the assumptions with bitcoin is that its longer term price direction (4-10 years or more) is quite likely to be upwards, so there is a certain expectation that even if a person may well end up needing his investment capital (presumptively to be profitable) to be withdrawn sometime after 4 years, then there are decently good chances that it will be profitable, even though surely no one should be going into any investment (bitcoin or otherwise) with an expectation that the investment is guaranteed to be profitable or more profitable than other places that he could have had put his investment or even that his investment had not ended up going to zero, so any investment, including in bitcoin, should account for the possibility that 100% of the investment could be used, and as long as he is not engaging in leverage, then he should be able to count on the most that he could lose is going to be 100% of what he had invested. At the same time, no one goes to any investment expecting that it is not going to be profitable, even though surely he should be attempting to account for both upside and downside scenarios, even if his investment timeline might well be 4-10 years or longer for any amount of capital that he puts into bitcoin.

Quote from: EarnOnVictor on Today at 07:45:39 AM

However, one can still directly gamble in trading if they do not know it but just forcing things. You can imagine the person who was not sure of what the market would do, instead of waiting for a clearer signal took a position. Such a person is actually gambling. The same goes for those who did not analyse the market but still opened a trade. This could be funny to you but some people do it.

I already realize that. There are a lot of folks who trade who think that they know more than they know or they unrealistically assign probabilities to upward or downward BTC price movements. So yeah, it is quite common to hear traders unrealistically assigning their price direction expectations, and likely many of us who monitor the bitcoin space and even interact with traders, we realize that traders do not necessarily need to get all of their calls correct, and they may well continue to be profitable by getting slightly more than 50% of their calls correct, yet even if some traders happen to be more successful than others, we should be able to concede that it takes quite a bit of time to figure out ways to be sufficiently consistent in trading profits that will not only cause the wins to be greater than the losses, but also to consistently suggest that traders are going to outperform a person who had been merely accumulating bitcoin over 5-12 years or longer.

So surely there could be a decent number of relatively short term traders who can boast outperforming the DCA-ers and the HODLers and the mostly BTC accumulators, their numbers become smaller and smaller and smaller the longer the timeline, especially historically in bitcoin's lifetime, and I doubt that there is any convincing evidence to suggest that traders are going to fair better in bitcoin's future as compared to how they have tended to do historically in bitcoin, even if we might consider that it is quite likely that bitcoin is not going to have nearly as high of a level of upside price movement (in terms of percentages) as it has had historically, which is largely suggesting that bitcoin's price growth curve is likely to continue to become less and les steep with the passage of time, even if a decent amount of volatility is likely to continue to exist (I frequently like to proclaim that one of the most inevitable things in bitcoin is its ongoing price volatility, but that still does not justify trading it rather than accumulating it through almost exclusive use of ongoing buying techniques, such as DCA, lump sum investing and/or buying the dip).

Quote from: EarnOnVictor on Today at 07:45:39 AM

To crown it all with another gambling in trading, the main aspect of trading that is similar to betting/gambling is called Options trading. Anything outside these two examples when the trader is acting professionally is Trading which has every distinction from Gambling.

You seem to presume that most traders have some kind of a built-in practicality, which does not seem to line up with actual facts in regards to either how people behave and/or in regards to how around 90% of traders end up losing money, and probably even higher percentages lose money compared to a straight forward DCA approach, especially if we go out to an investment timeline of 5-12 years or longer. So, yeah, I am not even proclaiming that there aren't some profitable traders, I am not going make such seemingly gradiose presumptions like you in terms of your assessment that such a large number of traders have their shit together and they know how to execute their trades in ways that ultimately cause them to be more profitable than someone engaging in a BTC accumulation strategy that ONLY utilizes various ongoing BTC buying techniques.

Quote from: Odohu on Today at 08:43:30 AM

Quote from: I_Anime on August 18, 2024, 09:22:44 PM

Quote from: Egii Nna on August 18, 2024, 08:41:49 PM

One thing I believe in this life is that whatever you believe in that is how you will view it, so to me, if you can view a trader as someone who has not been patient, I won’t see anything wrong with it, and me supporting trading doesn’t still mean that I don’t invest in bitcoin. All I want people to understand is that the main reason why they see trading this hard is because it has a higher risk than investment because I have tested both and I know how it feels.

Well there's no problem in one trading especially when one still focus on accumulating while trading. The reason why most time we don't encourage trading is because most people go into trading hoping to get rich quick without having a proper learning phase, they may endup wasting valuable resources due to having half-size knowledge. So trading is not something that one will just go into one need to take he or her time to build a better knowledge on how trading works, before hopping on it .

I want to believe that a good number of the participants in this discussion are relatively new to building Bitcoin portfolio for the long term. If that be the case, this your suggestion is seriously misleading and will make them run into problems. How can you advice someone to be trading and at this same time accumulate Bitcoin for long term? What are the chances of doing that successfully considering how risky trading is and the amount of technical and psychological expertise required to scale through in trading. The most likely outcome of such weird combination, for a new investor, is gradual transfer of his collected Bitcoin into his trading account and risking same away to trading.

Instead of this approach, why not the investor focus on building a reliable Bitcoin portfolio and holding same for as long as possible and enjoy the peace that comes with thinking long term in Bitcoin? I will never toe this line that is slippery and can lead to all my effort turning to nothing. Take the present market condition, most of my friends who are fully into trading are counting their losses now because trading is most effective in a market that is trending upward and not a ranging market like we have now. Even some of them that are deceiving themselves wit AI trading as still getting wrecked daily.

Hahahahaha..

Those are some good points Odohu.

Look we have a pretty much winning investment in bitcoin, and yeah sure it might take several bitcoin newbies a while to figure this out, yet why take a pretty solidly winning investment (even though it is not guaranteed) and turn it into either a mediocre investment or more likely an investment that loses money, and sure, maybe these trader addicts might end up being able to recover several of their earlier losses when bitcoin prices go up, but their bitcoin portfolio likely still ends up way underperforming as compared if they had just stayed focused on mostly just accumulating bitcoin through various buying methods and also potentially increasing their discretionary income by earning more money or cutting their expenses so that they are able to continue spend their time stacking sats rather than fucking around trying to figure out if the BTC price is going to go up, down or sideways in the short term... and then they also might end up being mostly out or too much out of their bitcoin investment and then all of a sudden bitcoin does some kind of a 2x or 3x price move in a short period of time, and they were too busy planning to buy the dip or some other dumb shit that ended up causing them to sell too much of their cornz too soon or to fail/refuse to buy enough on a regular, consistent and persistent basis.