Quote from: EarnOnVictor on Today at 01:14:50 AM

-snip-

Quote from: JayJuanGee on August 29, 2024, 03:53:00 PM

Since you are so smart EarnOnVictor, you would have had been trading it the whole time, and really screwed up your profits, whether you had bought below $32..

You clearly did not get the gist judging by your statements, I never mentioned trading in what you replied to, it was all about investment.

I think that I largely got the gist... sufficiently enough to make my comments, even if I am wrong, I am making a point about seeming contradictions in your post..

You are almost continuously promoting the idea and practice of trading and/or being smart in regards to playing expected bitcoin waves, and you have also been stating your regrets of your own past holding practices, presumptively since you would have had been able to make more money if you had traded rather than held..

Yet at the same you are applauding someone who would have gotten into bitcoin for less than $32 per BTC and acknowleging that such a person would have had made very good profits by holding, yet at same time proclaiming that the days of investing are over, since you even stated that the profits (or exponential price rises in bitcoin) are not likely going to be as high, and therefore trading should be the way forward rather than strict accumulating and holding.

Quote from: EarnOnVictor on Today at 01:14:50 AM

And certainly, I've been trading far before the crypto era, I've invested in a few assets and I've traded Bitcoin since 2013/2014, so I know the line between trading and investing and if I want to invest, I know what I am talking about and $32 is still very advantaged than when Bitcoin is $60,000, you can't undermine their market cap now.

Sure we cannot go back in the past, and you are trying to argue that times have changed, and suggesting that trading is more justifiable than it had been in the past, which surely seems to be erroneous thinking and even promoting of lame ideas to suggest that folks should seriously ponder trading bitcoin rather than investing into it based on bitcoin having had decent amount of past price growth and suggesting that trading is the preferable way to approach bitcoin, which also is misleading, even if you had been trading sine 2013/2014 in bitcoin and you also been trading before your involvement in bitcoin. So yeah, you are naturally inclined towards trading, and good for you. It still seems like a bad idea for more than 90% of the people coming into bitcoin, especially as compared to coming to bitcoin with a trading approach... but yeah, you still want to pump trading as if it were the best thing since sliced bread, and you are also seeming to agree with my point that even if you had gotten in bitcoin since below $32, you would have had been trading the whole time, whether that approach to bitcoin would have had been more profitable than a pure and strict investment approach is questionable, whether we are talking about your and your supposed expertise or any random newbie being able to get better results than a more strict investor.

So a guy who started investing $50 per week into bitcoin in mid 2012 and continued to invest $50 weekly into bitcoin for the next 9 years, presumptively until mid-2021, would have had invested right around $23.5k and would have accumulated 231 BTC. So I doubt your fucking around in trading would have had beaten that, even though since you had been trading and you are still promoting trading, that's what you would have had been doing if you got into bitcoin starting in mid-2012 (trading, fucking around, believing that you were smarter than the investors and maybe even deluding yourself in regards to your supposed levels of profits, since you may well would have had been measuring your profits in the dollars that you were scalping off your investment rather than allowing those dollars to compound over time.

And even if we go with a similar scenario of investing $100 per week starting from December 2013, you would have had invested nearly $57k and you would have had accumulated 46.2723 BTC, and sure that is not as good as the accumulation strategy in which you had gotten in 18 months earlier, but still not really bad results, and I have my doubts if you (or anyone else) would have had been able to beat such results in regards to trading or even some kind of trading practice that would have had been replicable.

Quote from: EarnOnVictor on Today at 01:14:50 AM

Quote from: JayJuanGee on August 29, 2024, 03:53:00 PM

People have always thought bitcoin was overly priced and not able to go up as much as previously, and sure there is truth to the claim, but there is still a lot of upside potential in bitcoin, even if the multiples (and magnitudes) cannot be as great as they had been previously, but they are still sufficiently good and bitcoin remains amongst the best if not the best investment currently available. Bitcoin is about 1/15th the market cap of gold and bitcoin is likely around 1,000x or more more valuable than gold, and so even though it could take 50-200 years or more for the price matters to play out, we should still be able to recognize and appreciate something in the ballpark of 15k times price appreciation for bitcoin.. and yeah gold could lose value too in the process...so those relative prices based on market cap would not be just based on bitcoin going up relative to gold.

No doubt, Bitcoin is a good asset, which is why I am involved in it, but the reality that will dawn on people later is that it may not have the momentum to climb as fast as they expect. This doesn't mean it will not be appreciated, but what people think it would do in 4 years may be achieved in decades.

Sure, whatever, people can choose how much to put into bitcoin and can try to figure what kinds of appreciation that they expect it to do, even of course, reasonably concluding that bitcoin's growth curve (in terms of percentages) is likely not going to be close to the same level of its historical price grown curve... so yeah, the bitcoin slope is likely becoming less steep.

Quote from: EarnOnVictor on Today at 01:14:50 AM

As for Gold, I don't see any correlation between it and Bitcoin and don't forget that Gold has physical use but Bitcoin does not have it. I've also noticed that the market cap of the two are irrespective of each other, Btcoin may grow while Gold grows as well, so there is enough room to contain both without interference in liquidity inflow, except for the preference of investors.

You can believe whatever you like. I already largely made my point in regards to the relevance including that bitcoin is likely in the ballpark of 1,000x or greater more valuable than gold, and we don't need to agree.. .you can come to your own calculations, including your presumption that there is some kind of importance (in regards to giving gold more value) in terms of its physicality, when in fact gold's physicality may well be more of a liability than a strength when it comes to various aspects of money, including but not limited to its portability, verifiability, divisibility and costs related to custody and transportation. Sure, gold does seem to have some utility value in regards to its physicality, but so fucking what, the various utility values does not cause it to be a better or good competitor to bitcoin in terms of monetary properties, and surely some of the utility value aspects contribute to inefficiencies in gold being used as a money... again, you can believe what you like about these evaluations and apportion your investment proportionate to your beliefs about the value comparisons.

Quote from: EarnOnVictor on Today at 01:14:50 AM

Quote from: JayJuanGee on August 29, 2024, 03:53:00 PM

Wow... You used to be a HODLer and accumulator but you turned into a trader. How long did you practice HODLing and accumulating? A year? or some other amount of time within your seemingly vast bitcoin experiences?

This is not about trading but smart investment.

It means the same thing from what you have been saying in the past... attempts to play the waves.

Quote from: EarnOnVictor on Today at 01:14:50 AM

I've always been a trader of Bitcoin even when I was HODLing a higher amount, but now, I've reduced the amount of my HODLing to maximise my earnings through a better feasible approach. It's still the same Bitcoin investment by the way.

Of course, you can apportion your trading versus the investment portion of your bitcoin holdings however, you like, and frequently I suggest that beginners do not allocate more than 10% of the value of their bitcoin holdings to trading, even if they want to practice. Of course, if you become more experienced, you can allocate however much you want to each of the categories, and surely, from my perspective, it would not be a good idea for anyone to allocate more than 10% of the size of his bitcoin holdings to trading, unless he had decent sized conviction and understanding about his experiences and skills.. and yeah, members here can do whatever they like with their investment choices, even if they jump more into trading than they should do based on their wrongly assessing their abiities and experiences. Each member is responsible for his own allocation choices.

Quote from: EarnOnVictor on Today at 01:14:50 AM

Quote from: JayJuanGee on August 29, 2024, 03:53:00 PM

In spite of your claims, bitcoin is far from being a mature asset merely because some financial folks on wallstreet are starting to market and pump bitcoin. You are diluted if you believe bitcoin to have had come even close to becoming a mature asset.

That's your view, I have mine, and based on my experience in the financial market, I certainly know what I am saying. Do you know how many people trade Bitcoin daily in the financial market and how huge the volumes are? So it is not about pumping alone but the market behaving like a true mature asset. Perhaps, you took the "mature" as a cap in my last post, you are wrong if that is the case.

It seems that at this time, I have already made my point sufficiently on this, and we don't even need to agree... yet ever since I got into bitcoin I have been hearing guys proclaiming that bitcoin is becoming sufficiently mature and various other kinds of nonsense that seem to limit their assessments of both where we are at and where we might be going, and if you happen to have a more sophisticated view of the topic, then good for you.

Quote from: EarnOnVictor on Today at 01:14:50 AM

Quote from: JayJuanGee on August 29, 2024, 03:53:00 PM

Trading is a sure way for folks to lose money out of being greedy rather than just going along with whatever price appreciation that bitcoin brings through the smarter and even less complicated buy and hold techniques.

I never mentioned trading but trading chart, you can read that again. The use of the trading chart is for you to make an informed decision on your Bitcoin investment and not rely on beliefs and assumptions. Whether I call it a trading chart or an investment chart, they mean the same thing.

Trading and investing are not the same from my point of view, and I cannot remember your trading/investing chart, to the extent it might need to be discussed further in regards to your assertion that trading and investing are largely similar... I know some traders consider their management of their trading capital as a kind of ongoing investment and working capital that they are trying to grow, so I don't really have any problem with those kinds of ideas, but I do have problem with promoting and/or pumping trading ideas as if they were superior to investing ideas, especially for bitcoin beginners who may well need to spend time building up their bitcoin holdings before getting into trading, but yeah in the end, people can do what they want...and make their own choices regarding how much they would like to or believe that they need to build up their bitcoin holdings prior to fucking around with trading.

By the way, I do understand that there are people who do not have income earning options, so there could be some exceptions where it may well be good for some folks in places with problematic job markets to invest their time in learning and getting experience in regards to trading, yet I would still consider those to be exception situations rather than something that should be promoted as great ideas for everyone to go down some kind of a trading path prior to building up some level of bitcoin holdings first.