Quote from: Agbamoni on October 02, 2024, 10:54:57 PM

Quote from: Callido on October 02, 2024, 03:21:10 PM

Living on a single source of income is not bad, but not totally valid, it also depends on how much income the person gets by the end of the month or week, if the income is very high enough to sustain every vital needs and still to invest then nothing much to worry about. But, owning a second part of earning is also a good move for anyone who would love to control more funds.

Relying on one income is not a safe idea. No matter the amount that the source is able to make for us in a month or year, it is better to have another source because nothing lasts forever and not just last alone. From time to time there is competition from others, and there will be advancement and development in all niches, businesses, or industries. If that source gets closed or is experiencing difficulty, then that is when our other business or work will help us maintain balance until we are back in track.

Don't forget responsibilities increases with time. You might be single today and in the next few years you might be married with kids and still have extended families to watch out for some time. Imagine investing $200 of Bitcoin and expenses cost you $300 when you are single at a monthly income of $600. And you choose not to diversify or extend your source of income. When you get a family or a bigger responsibility your expensive might increase to $400 to $500 and now you will only have about $100 or less to investing Bitcoin. his is why diversification and sorting for other source for more income is necessary.

You are using the term diversification wrongly, and you are trying to suggest that a guy needs more than once source of income or to increase his income if he feels that he wants to invest into bitcoin, especially if he ONLY has $100 of disposable/discretionary income... . that is his income after his expenses.

I don't even necessarily agree with your conclusion about the need for more than one job, yet I understand why you are saying that you want to have back up sources of income if one of your sources of income dries up. and that part makes sense. Sure if guys have low skilled labor jobs then maybe they have to increase the quantity of their jobs, yet there can also be ways to increase skills and to increase income based on skills and/or experience and also to increase pay and job security based on marketable skills, yet surely it is understood that some locations have more job opportunities than others, so sometimes there can be challenges to increase income if job opportunities are not great in a certain area in which you are living or choosing to live (not that people can always change locations very easily, either).

The term diversification tends to refer to the kinds of things that a guy invests into, and the number of things, and generally a guy who is first building his investment into bitcoin does not need to diversify into any other kinds of investments beyond bitcoin and cash until some time after he has built up his bitcoin and/or his cash. Surely, people might feel a bit uncomfortable holding very much of their value in cash if the cash is not holding its value, so there can be those kinds of dilemmas too, yet emergency funds and various kinds of reserve funds usually should be very liquid.. meaning that they can b cashed out easily, and so many times people would hold their local currency, even though surely a lot of local currencies are ongoingly being debased.

Quote from: Agbamoni on October 02, 2024, 10:54:57 PM

Quote from: JayJuanGee on October 02, 2024, 08:23:38 PM

Income and discretionary income are not the same thing, even though you might be describing something similar, but the concept of discretionary income is the amount of money that you have left after you account for your expenses. It is more accurate to say that we are ONLY investing from our discretionary income rather than just presuming that two people with the same income are the same or presuming that merely if someone makes more money or less money that he is able to invest in bitcoin or not. Sometimes people have discretionary expenses too, so if they cut some of their discretionary expenses, then they end up having greater discretionary income (more money available to buy bitcoin). Of course a person who chooses to spend 100% of his discretionary income on buying bitcoin is likely going to end up getting himself into trouble due to miscalculation of his expenses or even sometimes realizing that he needs or wants thing, so sometimes even within discretionary income there could be things that a guy wants to be able to buy from time to time or to prepare for some extra discretionary expenses through the month like going out to eat, drink or go to a movie. and so if he has spent all of his discretionary income on bitcoin, he might create some worse existence and stress for himself and perhaps even get into a position that he ends up having to draw from his bitcoin because he did not lessen his level of BTC buying aggressiveness.

Income and discretionary income can be very confusing to most people, especially to those who don't have a fixed salary coming at the end of the month.

They are still both existing concepts, and if your income is irregular then you are going to have more challenges to calculate it, whether you get jobs that pay by the job, pay by the hour, pay by the day or surely having fixed salary jobs bring more security, yet you still have to work with what you got, and if you cannot figure out ways to make sure that your income is consistently greater than your expenses (the left over part is discretionary income), then you should not be investing into bitcoin. So in order to actually invest rather than to trade or gamble, you have to make sure that you are able to get extra income.. .and if you cannot consistently receive pay for several months, then you probably have to save whatever pay that you have for if your pay ends up drying up... So, in those kinds of circumstances, you might not have enough security and/or confidence to be able to set aside money for 4-10 years or longer which is what it required to be investing into bitcoin rather than either trading it or gambling with it.. and personally, I don't recommend trading and/or gambling with bitcoin... even though surely people do do those kinds of things with their bitcoin purchases.

Quote from: Agbamoni on October 02, 2024, 10:54:57 PM

The concern is that if a person gets a monthly salary, it is easy to identify a discretionary income after removing the rest money for expenses in that month. But imagine a case where one has a skill and gets paid based on when he finishes his job, or the task given to him. This means at most it is difficult to completely manage and know what the overall income and the discretionary income are.

You still have to figure it out. You have to deal with the situation that you have in terms of how certain you are to continue to get various jobs and to receive income on an ongoing basis, so if you never can build up extra income beyond your expenses, then you probably should not be investing into bitcoin since you are likely going to need that money in less than 4 years.

You have to either increase your income or reduce your expenses or both in order to be able to buy bitcoin and to be able to hold it for 4 years or more.. and really you should be thinking about investing to be 10 years to 20 years or more rather than just 4 years, unless you happen to be elderly with a shorter timeline.

Quote from: Agbamoni on October 02, 2024, 10:54:57 PM

Since his money can come anytime within the months and part by part based on the jobs and offers, he has that month. Such a person may find it hard to know the right percentage to use for the purchase of Bitcoin.

A person who is in such a situation that he really does not know, then he might have to wait until all of his income for the whole month comes in before he allocates whatever portion that he considers to be extra towards bitcoin, yet if he cannot consistently continue to earn income each month, then he cannot buy bitcoin one month if he might not even have any income the next month... so the guy has to have gained a certain level of confidence that he is going to continue to be able to bring in income if he is going to be buying bitcoin with any excess income that he has brought in any given month.

I agree that certain kinds of work and certain kinds of income are less secure than other kinds of income and work, so if you are going to be stuck doing those kinds of shitty jobs all of your life, then you may well have challenges in terms of building up your income to a confident enough of a level to be able to buy bitcoin. Guys do frequently figure out how (or work on ways) to increase their employment and/or their income opportunities, which might be required for guys who are wanting to invest into bitcoin.

Quote from: Agbamoni on October 02, 2024, 10:54:57 PM

I see people in those positions when they calculate how much they made that month. For instance, it could be $2000 and what is left as discretionary income is $200. This is a huge issue for new or old investors.

Surely some folks might have a lot of expenses and sometimes they might have difficulties reducing their expenses, since perhaps some expenses might even relate to being able to keep the job or income that you have, and so surely their can be challenges to increase income and/or to reduce expenses in order to actually have confidence that the remaining portion is discretionary income that can be used to buy bitcoin... and you may well only want to buy bitcoin with a portion of your discretionary income since you might have mistaken your income or your expenses or your income might go down and your expenses might go up.

Quote from: Agbamoni on October 02, 2024, 10:54:57 PM

It is impulsive spending and improper records.

Those are disciplinary things that can be improved upon. I would not consider those kinds of things to be problems, since people can get better at those kinds of discipline and organizing kinds of things.

Quote from: Agbamoni on October 02, 2024, 10:54:57 PM

For those persons who fall under this category, the need for becoming better should be put in place.

Isn't that part of the reason that we spend times in forums like this to learn those kinds of ideas? Also we might have to spend time with our own papers and planning - whether we plan using papers or if we have computers and cell phones to help us to plan... We still might want to project out our income and expenses, and I frequently llke to do that for several months into the future, and the more complicated your income, expenses and/or investments, then the more you might be advantaged by projecting your income and expenses out into the future, such as using Excel and projecting out 2 years. .Of course, each of the closer months are going to be more important and more specific since those expenses have to be covered in a short period of time, as compared with the income and expenses further out is going to tend to be more general, and the further out time periods might have to be based on pure estimations if you do not have much if any job security. Surely there is value in having job security, yet surely there is variation in job security too.. so a person might get a job that is fairly secure for 3-6 months, but there might not be a lot of assurance regarding what the income might be after those 3-6 months, so there may need to be some estimation regarding what they next jobs might be, and so I am not suggesting that everyone is in a similar situation, and surely guys have to try to adapt to their situation, and if they know that they have issues with lack of confidence in their income then they might need to try to figure out if there might be ways that they can improve the assuredness of their income.

Quote from: Agbamoni on October 02, 2024, 10:54:57 PM

Cutting down unnecessary spending and staying on a schedule will tend to harness the difficulties. I was concerned to talk about it because I have been in that position before and out of it, but many are still finding it hard to identify or differentiate possible income from discretionary income.

Sure, it is a real problem that some guys have and sure, they might have difficulties getting out of situations where they have problems with their income and/or their expenses... and if they cannot figure out ways to make sure that they have more income than their expenses (discretionary income) then they probably should not be buying bitcoin unless they can get to such a income status that is sufficiently greater than their expenses. The world is not fair in terms of starting points that guys have, and some things can be improved such as organizing and discipline, but other things might be more challenging if some guys might have physical and./or mental handicaps or even difficulties in their geography to improve their income or to reduce their expenses.

Sometimes folks who are really young, they go through challenging times, but they are able to work their way into better opportunties, whether it is through jobs and experience, or perhaps technical training or university education, and guys likely need to figure out if they are able to work their way into improving their situation or if they might have too many obstacles and they are not really able to increase their income or to decrease their expenses.... and if they cannot figure out some ways of determining that they have discretionary income then they might not be served by investing into bitcoin, since their situation does not have anything extra to invest.

Quote from: terrific on October 02, 2024, 11:11:02 PM

Quote from: ginsan on October 02, 2024, 09:09:39 PM

As for fees, it's not a problem, but as you said, sometimes it's really annoying.

The fees are only becoming a problem when the network is being spammed. But so far, there's no signs of it and hopefully they won't appear anytime soon.

Guys should continue to be prepared for fluctuations in fees, so they should not presume that fees are always going to be low, and so they should be attempting to engage in their own UTXO management skills in order to not have a bunch of low value UTXOs that might become unspendable in the future or even cause you to believe that you have more value than you do.

For example, a guy with 0.5 BTC in 5 or 20 UTXOs (and perhaps no UTXOS less than 0.002 BTC is likely going to be way better off than a guy who might have the same quantity of BTC in 100 UTXOs.. including if the guy has many UTXOs that are less than 0.002 BTC. Sure the lower value UTXOs are still spendable, yet there might be times in the future where they might not be economical to spend unless they are kept in a certain way.. perhaps on lightning network or held on a custodian (though we are trying to discourage keeping too much value with third party custodians). .. even worse if you might have a bunch of UTXOs that are less than 0.001 BTC.. .. and sure no problem if you have a few that fall into that category, but if you believe that you have 0.5 BTC but they are all in transactions that are less than 0.001 BTC and even less than 0.002 BTC, you might find yourself in quite a bad situation in the future in which you do not have as much wealth as you thought that you had. Newbies might not know about UTXO management, and you could end up getting screwed by your own lack of knowledge and your presumptions in regards to how to manage your UTXOs - if you might not even know what a UTXO is and how to manage them, besides just holding your coins with 3rd party custodians.

Quote from: DubemIfedigbo001 on Today at 12:06:52 AM

Quote from: Salahmu on October 02, 2024, 11:08:59 PM

Quote from: SuperBitMan on October 02, 2024, 03:35:03 PM

When you receive your salary monthly and you decide to remove the one for Bitcoin and then divide it so you can then be using it to invest weekly there's a high tendency that you may even use it for another thing with the hope of returning it which may never happen there by reducing your accumulation percentage for the month.

There is what they called discretionary fund, this is actually the funds that would be left after you must have done all your expenses and there are no more other things that will disturb you then you can use it for your accumulation of Bitcoin, so at this point I see no reason why you should use the funds you had budgeted on your DCA accumulation for another thing with the hope of returning it back because that shows that you are not discipline because an investors who have a goal to achieve on Bitcoin will enever allow anything to hamper there weekly accumulation.

I agree with you because there's such thing as emergency funds and then there's another called discretionary funds. An emergency fund is a cash cushion you build up for yourself to handle sudden life changes or demands that comes your way and it is very much advisable to build up your emergency funds to a reasonable extent before thinking of investing in Bitcoin so that your discretionary income isn't under any form of threat while your DCA accumulation is in progress.

No matter how you want and spread out your accumulation periods in order to possibly mitigate the volatility in the price of Bitcoin, any emergencies you've or concerns should be handled by your already set aside emergency funds and should have nothing to do with your discretionary income used for DCA accumulation.

You express these ideas in a confusing way DubemIfedigbo001.

Discretionary income is the excess income that you have after you account for expenses.

Emergency funds can be built up over time, and it tends to get built up from discretionary income.

Most likely you want to set up all of your cashflow management so that you never have to touch emergency funds absent an actual emergency, so guys could go 20-30-40 years and never touch their emergency funds because they never get to such a bad situation that they are all the way down to their last funds... so yeah, if you use your emergency funds you likely have to build them back up as soon as possible, and guys should figure out how to balance out these kinds of matters, yet it seems that an experienced investor (or someone who has been managing his cashflow well for a long time) will have good systems in place, and newbie investors are likely going to have more challenges to both build up their emergency fund and their other forms of back up funds, so they might have more tendencies to make mistakes or not have enough or to gamble with their money that they thought that they were investing...

so there can be challenges in building up the various kinds of funds and also to get used to using them effectively, and probably feeling quite rich when the various kinds of back up funds are in place, and hopefully feeling even richer if their cashflow management is balanced out with an ongoing building and growing of a BTC investment along the way.

Quote from: promise444c5 on Today at 12:13:53 AM

Quote from: I_Anime on October 02, 2024, 08:27:32 PM

Quote from: SuperBitMan on October 02, 2024, 04:16:01 PM

If you receive salary monthly and you think by dividing the money you have set aside for your Bitcoin accumulation into weeks will earn you more Bitcoin through the hope that there will be a dip within the week were you can buy at low price then you are just a trader.
Have you thought of you dividing it and in the course of you buying weekly with the money met for the month and Bitcoin price goes up will you wait for it to come down before you buy or you will still go ahead and buy, there's no need dividing it if you receives your salary monthly because there's no difference in the monthly and weekly accumulation except you are a trader who is waiting for a dip to happen

as a short-term trader that will be a nice strategy but not for long-term investors, because waiting for the dip is not a smart move at all as a long-term investor , rather you purchase at anytime you have some money to spare that you can hold for long either by DCAing or lump-summing.

Because waiting for the dip will only slow one down , and IMO the when it comes to accumulating, whenever I divide my funds, I usually use 40\50 , so the 40 percentage Is my emergency funds while the remaining, is for accumulating, in order to cover some space but is not fixed though, because sometimes I can choose to set some percentage as reserve funds but I mainly focus on emergency and accumulating funds .

I don't think that was what the OP really meant but it's related... just that the trading aspect should be completely ignored.OP is insinuating on buying strategy lumpsum compared to DCA for people earning monthly salary..
Firstly, OP need to know that either you split your funds to get BTC weekly or you used it up monthly you're still using the DCA strategy... but weekly could be more efficient than monthly. Why?? Bitcoin movement perttern does not move in a single direction so having different entry within a month could be much better than having a single entry per month.
For example
I'm used to receiving paycheck of $3000/month and I decide to invest 70%on bitcoin that's around 2100 or let's just say 2000
Let's say the price of bitcoin is at $64,000 the day you invest
I.e Monthly =>$64,000
Now if you try investing weekly you can different price entry of
$64k, $65k and maybe it dipped and you had the entry of $62 & 63
And with different entry you pulled in with 500bucks... which do you think will be more profitable.
Not saying that you can't take a monthly entry for your DCA though but with weekly you can pull in with some dip and even if there was no dip the price entries won't be too far from each other . Besides, every entry counts so far you're doing it within the intervals

Let's try to be more realistic with our example. Sure there are guys who can choose to invest $500 per week or $2k per month, but more realistically we have guys who might ONLY have $50 to $500 per month to invest, and they might have uncertainties with their cashflow too.

I personally prefer weekly DCA for newbies in order to encourage active buying of BTC, yet weekly buying still might not work for everyone, and surely someone who has $2k per month extra is going to be in a more flexible position as compared with someone who might only have $500 per month or even $50 per month extra.. yet decisions about whether to actively invest every week or every month is not ONLY based on their cashflow, yet when the amounts get to be really small, there can also be some issues with fees too.

A person who is brand new to BTC investing, might want to spend time paying more attention to his bitcoin purchases, yet if the guy has already been buying for a year or two, he might want to spend less time learning about bitcoin or paying attention to bitcoin. There are also some guys who might want to set up automatic DCA, which might mean that they don't want to spend a lot of time thinking about their BTC purchases. I would still think it is better to set up their DCA purchases weekly, especially if they are automatic, yet I also like the idea of manual DCA, even though like I mentioned some folks don't want to be interacting with their BTC on a manual basis, which is also fine.

Quote from: Edcrypto91 on Today at 02:47:38 AM

Quote from: JayJuanGee on October 01, 2024, 06:54:40 PM

Quote from: SuperBitMan on October 01, 2024, 09:20:31 AM

Quote from: Wind_FURY on October 01, 2024, 04:35:11 AM

Shower thought. If there was a person who would start a debate and tell me that Bitcoin's price today is "too high", I would argue back that, although Bitcoin's price might be "too high", it might also be mispriced towards the lower extreme of the cycle. The market hasn't truly priced in the Halving, AND the true nature of the Bitcoin spot ETF.

But we can see the proof of that in a simple chart. Research Gold ETF - when it started, then look at the Gold chart after it started.

When Bitcoin was created some people didn't believe Bitcoin would grow this big in price so yes Bitcoin price is high but not too high,

Surely part of the challenge for anyone, and maybe even moreso for a bitcoin newbie, is trying to figure out the extent to which BTC prices might be high or not. In several senses, bitcoin prices seem high to newbies not only in terms of the price of one bitcoin (the unit value if not looking at satoshis), but also describing bitcoin in terms of how much it has appreciated does not necessarily inspire confidence that it is going to continue to appreciate - especially for someone who is just looking at bitcoin at a superficial level and also someone who is not very well informed about bitcoin might be buying into some of the negative bitcoin talking points, so if they don't know much about bitcoin and they might be getting confronted with conflicting narratives about bitcoin, then they have difficulties evaluating it.

We should be buying bitcoin now.

Navigating the world of bitcoin can be overwhelming especially for newcomers. The steep price tag is intimidating enough but when you factor in its rapid appreciation it's natural to wonder if bitcoin's value is truly sustainable. Will it continue to rise or is it a bubble waiting to burst The conflicting narratives don't help - on one hand, bitcoin's hailed as a revolutionary investment, whil on the other, it's dismissed as a high-risk gamble. For those without a deep understanding of the space, it's tough to separate fact from fictio and the constant noise can be paralyzing. How do you make sense of it all and decide whether bitcoin's worth the investment?

I think that all that you mentioned relates to how much to invest into bitcoin rather than whether to invest into bitcoin.

So each person has to figure out how much he is going to invest into bitcoin. Personally, I tend to recommend that BTC for a beginner bitcoin should be 5% to 25% of their quasi-liquid investment portfolio, and so they might need to build up to that. If they are a brand new investment and they do not have any other investments, then they could build from their existing income, which might be an aim of 5% to 25% of their income put into bitcoin, and of course, I am assuming that they are using discretionary income, so they have to make sure that their expenses are accounted for prior to investing into bitcoin.. if they do not have discretionary income then they cannot invest into bitcoin until they either increase their income or reduce their expenses.

So yeah, choose the size of your investment into bitcoin based on your beliefs, and better to get started and build your bitcoin investment as soon as possible, while still being responsible for your own choices whether or not to invest and also if choosing to invest, then how much.

If you are skeptical about bicoin then you invest on the lower end of the 5% to 25% range, and sure some folks are so skeptical that they choose to ONLY invest 1%, and that is their choice if they want to be whimpy about it. They live with the consequences, either way.

If you have more confidence in bitcoin then you try to invest on the higher end of the range and more aggressively, and sure you can be studying bitcoin and learning along the way, too. Anyone who invests should build up his cashflow management, and the stronger the cashflow management, such as the creation of an emergency fund and reserve funds, and the more aggressive a person can afford to be with his BTC investment, without over doing it.

In the end, no one should be so aggressive in their bitcoin investment that they end up causing themselves to get forced out of the BTC investment because they were gambling rather than investing... so with that anyone investing into bitcoin should also have a 4-10 year or longer investment time horizon. young people likely might be considering bitcoin as a 30-40 year investment.. and so if they are in the early years of investing into bitcoin, it could take a while to build up the bitcoin holdings..

Quote from: Wind_FURY on Today at 03:34:33 AM

Quote from: JayJuanGee on October 01, 2024, 06:54:40 PM

Quote from: SuperBitMan on October 01, 2024, 09:20:31 AM

Quote from: Wind_FURY on October 01, 2024, 04:35:11 AM

Shower thought. If there was a person who would start a debate and tell me that Bitcoin's price today is "too high", I would argue back that, although Bitcoin's price might be "too high", it might also be mispriced towards the lower extreme of the cycle. The market hasn't truly priced in the Halving, AND the true nature of the Bitcoin spot ETF.

But we can see the proof of that in a simple chart. Research Gold ETF - when it started, then look at the Gold chart after it started.

When Bitcoin was created some people didn't believe Bitcoin would grow this big in price so yes Bitcoin price is high but not too high,

Surely part of the challenge for anyone, and maybe even moreso for a bitcoin newbie, is trying to figure out the extent to which BTC prices might be high or not.

The newbies.

I'm very confident that those people who sold at a $50,000 and lower price level will be the same people who will FOMO during the next major Bitcoin surge. But they will FOMO in for less units of Bitcoin because they will be forced to purchase at a higher price level. Although some of them might buy a shitcoin to chase Bitcoin's surge, merely a small amount of those people will actually chase it. - 90% of them will lose MORE in units of Bitcoin.

But I'm also confident that, like me, learning the hard way will turn some of them into Bitcoin HODLers.

Frequently, we learn best through experiences, and so some people take several times before they learn, and others learn more quickly. Some folks sell, and some folks fail to buy, and some are waiting for more dip, and so maybe they can be buying BTC in the lower $60ks, and they may or may not get lucky if they are waiting for mid to lower $50ks, and folks who are brand new to bitcoin or maybe who have ONLY been in bitcoin for a year or two, if they have been ongoingly buying bitcoin, then they are likely going to be better off than those folks who are waiting for dips that may or may not happen.

Of course, BTC prices have been largely going up for the past two years, so they might have a false sense that we are at or near a top, which does seem to be problematic thinking even though we cannot guarantee $100k or more in this year or even in 2025, yet it still seems that newbies are going to be better off if they either start stacking if they have not been or to continue stacking if they have ONLY been building their BTC stash in the last couple years, unless they were able to front load their investment to reach their investment target. The circumstances of longer term investors might be more complicated, especially if we might have had been into bitcoin for more than a whole cycle. Some are still buying regularly and ongoingly, others are buying on the dip, but some need a certain amount of dip before they buy more.