Quote from: Ruttoshi on Today at 05:49:06 PM

Quote from: Shadiq on Today at 05:31:25 PM

Quote from: Stablexcoin on November 05, 2024, 12:57:30 PM

Bitcoin is a different kind of asset compared to other traditional money and asset in the stock exchange where we can easily withdraw our profits whenever we feel like. Because of the volatility nature of Bitcoin its a difficult to know when the right time to hold or sell. From my study the price can go up a lot in value, but it can quickly drop down, So, the dilemma is; Do we wish to hold onto our Bitcoin with the hope that it will rise in value or do we to sell some of it when we see some gains, especially when the market looks very shaky in the eyes. Since holding simply means we can get more in the future, but can also risk losing some profits if the price falls.
The main challenge here is balancing between taking advantage of Bitcoin’s potential for growth while managing the risk of price drops and figuring out when is the right time to cash out or make moves without getting hurt by market swings. This is where the long term benefits comes over the short term quick gains. I can say for an investor who has invested up to 10 to 15 years he can take some little profits if he has things that are important to do. He can completely cash out if he is satisfied with the investment growth and profit and perhaps chooses to shift into other opportunities.

I find analogy with trade as you say. When you plan for the long term, the ups and downs in Bitcoin prices won't affect your investment. Your retention period will be around 4 years-12 years or if cycle is calculated it will be at least 1 cycle or more. But I personally prefer 3 cycles or longer. If you buy regularly with a 3-cycle or 12-year holding plan, you won't be affected by the ups and downs in Bitcoin prices or volatility in the Bitcoin market. Because after 3 cycles I think there may be a big difference between the average buy price and sell price of your bitcoins.

If you are planning to sell bitcoins for a small profit for a living or a temporary gain that is not set in time, then the volatility of the bitcoin price may affect you and you may lose a lot from now on. You may be interested in hoddling with the idea of temporary gains, where you will be able to build a much larger portfolio and Bitcoin is more likely to give you better returns. If you are not patient enough to hold for long then you can plan alternatives, where you have less chance of losing.

I don't understand what you mean by planning alternatives to bitcoin long term investment and hodli plan that will limit your losses apart from investing in a long-term and hodli for long. Is there something that we don't know which you know and you are not telling us, because the last time I checked, bitcoin is best to be a long-term investment which you build and hodli for long to limit your losses and have a high chance of making profits in future, nothing apart from this.

Is selling and buying back your alternative, because that is gambling or waiting for the dip, I don't see how you can be successful in your bitcoin journey if you are not patient with your bitcoin investment for you to build and grow it overtime for the future while you hodli.

You said that you prefer investing ans hodli for three cycles how are you going to do that if you ars not patient because there's no alternative way out.

I would imagine that if each of us is going through a long process of accumulating bitcoin, we might start out accumulating BTC for one whole cycle and almost exclusively building up ONLY our bitcoin and our cash, yet at some point, it may well start to make sense to make sure that we have some diversification beyond just the cash and the BTC investments. These surely become discretionary scenarios in regards to considering how much value is building up in the BTC and/or cash holdings, and surely once a person might start to get more than a year's worth of expenses in bitcoin, the dilemma might start to be felt... and surely if there is more than a year's worth of expenses in bitcoin, then how much does the guy have in cash? presumptively a minimum of 3 months in his emergency fund, yet how much does he have in his other cash reserves and/or float? Does he want to build those up too? and does he want some of those to be in something other than cash so that they are "working" for him? I have some troubles in the thought of completely keeping all investments in bitcoin and only bitcoin, yet there are guys who are willing to invest in those kinds of ways, which surely can be stressful kinds of ways of going through extensively downward volatile periods in bitcoin , which I am not going to be assuming those to be going away anytime soon, such as in the next 10-20 years, which should be relevant to the investment period of many of us.

Quote from: Dump3er on Today at 06:15:16 PM

Quote from: JayJuanGee on Today at 06:02:56 AM

The truth of the matter is that it can be very tempting to sell most if not all of your bitcoin just like hypothetical 2 did, and he ended up with nearly $1 million in profits out of a $47k investment, so it is difficult to proclaim that he did not profit, even though he would have had been better off to hold onto more of his BTC, perhaps some variation .. yet whenever any of us is attempting to create a somewhat realistic hypothetical comparison, we have to show how there can be a considerably great dilemma - including that we do not have the advantage of hindsight when we are caught up in the moment and we might have a variety of dilemmas that include temptations to consume and/or invest and even perhaps speculating that we might end up better off by selling most if not all of our BTC...

yet the more that we learn about bitcoin, the more we likely figure out that there are quite a few advantages to try to employ longer term HODLing and accumulating strategies, even though surely also at some point we may well transition out of mostly accumulating and into mostly selling (or shaving off here and there), and we still might be able to figure out a fair and reasonable balance that allows us to start reasonably withdrawing bitcoin even if we know that with the passage of time we are going to end up with fewer and fewer and fewer bitcoin... but having fewer and fewer bitcoin still might end up being an o.k. result once we got to a status that we consider to be over accumulation so shaving off bitcoin from our stash along the way ends up being an approach that we consider to be acceptable to our overall situation.

Do you think that we could soon get to a level of acceptance where there are platforms that allow you to borrow against your BTC holdings at competitive rates?

Personally, it seems to me that more and more businesses are going to be wanting to offer attractive terms to bitcoiners, yet it is still taking time for the word to get out in regards to various ways that competitive products can be offered that recognize and appreciate that bitcoin remains amongst the best of collateral assets.

Quote from: Dump3er on Today at 06:15:16 PM

I think if we get there, more people would decide against liquidating their BTC and instead use their holdings to otherwise leverage their position.

Of course, both is going to exist, since there is always going to be some complications in entering contracts in which some control (if not completely losing custody) of bitcoin might end up needing to be part of collateral-based relationships.

Quote from: Dump3er on Today at 06:15:16 PM

I know that you are not the biggest fan of debt if I recall correctly, but with sound financial management, I would rather borrow against my BTC instead of selling it.

I am not really against debt, since we have a society that runs off of debt, and there surely can be ways for any of us to advantage ourselves if we leverage debt and we are able to engage in responsible leveraging of our debt. Surely one of the historical problems in bitcoin has been the custody situation and the custodians either gambling with the bitcoin in their possession or otherwise acting irresponsibly with their holding of the bitcoin.

Quote from: Dump3er on Today at 06:15:16 PM

Yes as long as it is highly volatile, there is considerable risk involved.

I doubt that volatility is really the main risk, yet there could be issues in regards to how anyone custodying bitcoin on behalf of others is able to earn returns on such bitcoin that they are holding, and presumptively they could loan the bitcoin to someone else who is paying higher interest to borrow the bitcoin, so we ultimately can end up in problematic relations in which bitcoins are being lent out irresponsibly and/or the level of rehypothication ends up becomeing problematic, too.. It seems to me that volatility in itself can be dealt with through collateral levels that can be adjusted and known in advance.

Quote from: Dump3er on Today at 06:15:16 PM

But selling it and using the funds to buy something else could actually put us in a much weaker position given that we are literally selling tremendous upside potential in a moment of need or opportunity.

I agree that people do get tempted into wanting to start to sell their BTC prior to having had reached high enough levels of accumulation, and they also may be valuing their BTC at spot price rather than using some kind of a more conservative valuation metric, such as the 200-WMA.

Quote from: Dump3er on Today at 06:15:16 PM

I am currently not aware of platforms that offer these services at reasonable rates, but to be honest I am also not into this too much. I can imagine that in a couple of years with things like LTVF and maybe other layer solutions, borrowing against your holdings could become a viable thing.

I am not sure what is LTVF. Loan to value financing?

Quote from: Dump3er on Today at 06:15:16 PM

I sometimes think that from the most rational point of view, too many people have too little holdings and are more or less forced to believe that flipping is the right thing to do.

People do seem to tend to get ahead of themselves, and seem to be tempted into situations in which they are selling in order to buy more BTC cheaper and behaviors like that... which truly can be dangerous and put guys in bad situations, even though with any gambling, sometimes it might end up working out well for these kinds of folks too.

To me, it seems that part of the key is just continuing to accumulate BTC and don't be selling expecting to be able to buy back cheaper... .. so when sales of BTC are made, they are not made with expectations to buy back cheaper...and yeah, not everyone is going to even coming close to agreeing with my own perspectives on how to deal with BTC portfolio management.

Quote from: Dump3er on Today at 06:15:16 PM

Being able to hold despite being up several x is a luxury that mostly the rich can experience.

I am not going to presume that people start out rich. So my presumption would be that most people who go from being poor, to not poor and then to well off and then to rich are going to end up going through various periods in which they are continuing to live within their means as they are advancing up in to higher and higher standards of living.

So when they start to get close to fuck you status, they would likely go through a period in which they are merely at something close to entry-level fuck you status or approaching entry-level fuck you status, to later getting to several s (times) their entry-level fuck you status, so they have to go through various transition periods as they are advancing up the scale in which they have to manage their fuck you status in such a way that they are not continuously spending at the limit of their fuck you status .. or living beyond their means.. so perhaps they are always maintaining a cushion and continuing to make sure that they are living within their means...

So if they have always built life-long habits in which they maintain cushions within their spending levels, then their status of getting to entry-level fuck you status and then later exceeding fuck you status continues to grow and they end up transitioning from barely reaching entry-level fuck you status to having several times the value of their entry-level fuck you status because through the years, they have already build systems upon systems in which they are ongoingly and continuously living within their means.

It seems that at any time such person who is moving up the scale from one status to another is not able to control their wealth and figure out how to make sure that they are living within their means and if they get overly anxious and start to spend like a drunk sailor (beyond their means) too soon, then they will end up falling back down to a lower level and even losing progress on their way to entry-level fuck you status and getting well into fuck you status and even several times fuck you status.

I think that part of my point is that even any guys who are coming close to entry-level fuck you status or reaching fuck you status have already likely built good habits of both maintaining and building their wealth and so in that regard, they still likely need to continue to exercise precautions and prudence in regards to ongoingly living within their means, and surely identifying ways to valuate and being invested in good assets like bitcoin would likely be advantageous to them.

Quote from: Dump3er on Today at 06:15:16 PM

The poorer people feel the urge to sell much quicker even if it doesn't make the most sense from the perspective of someone who truly believes in further exponential growth, but I do at least get their point.

Poor people are going to have fun being poor if they cannot figure out ways to live within their means, even when they are making it and even while they are moving up the financial scale to be ongoingly improving their standard of living. I doubt that anyone can move from poor to not poor to well to do and then to rich if they are not ongoingly exercising good habits at each stage and/or step up that they are doing... So there likely is ongoing value to make sure that we have our money working for us in ways in which we are mostly spending from our passive income from that money and not from the principle, and if the passive income from the money is not enough, then we have to cut back on our expenses so that we are living within our means rather than depleting principle.