Quote from: Gallar on Today at 04:38:35 AM

Quote from: Zackz5000 on Today at 12:10:10 AM

Quote from: Pi$$ on January 06, 2025, 11:49:12 PM

You are repeating the same thing over and over again. Buying on Lump sum is not a do or die thing. Everyone should cut their coat according to their size. If you have to lump sum then do it if you don't have then go with DCA. Smaller investors should use a strategy that suits their financial capability and leave huge investors to lump sum.

I believe that smaller investor you mean are those that don't have a larger amount to accumulate with the lump sum strategy I don't think there is anything such as smaller or huge investor people can accumulate bitcoin according to the level of their discretionary income but why the DCA strategy is mostly adopted is that it gives investor the opportunity to accumulate Bitcoin gradually increasing their bitcoin stack either weekly or monthly and also choose to lump sum if the money is there investor who don't have money to lump sum can also use the lump sum strategy if probably he won a lottery or got an extra income from place of work may also decide to lump sum and still be doing the DCA strategy also, so the lump sum strategy is not only for the rich investors.

Investing in bitcoin using the Lump sum method can actually be done by anyone as long as the person has money. Apart from that, the Lump sum purchasing method also does not know how big or small the amount of money we have. However, we can also use this lump sum method when we have small or not very large funds. For example, a person has 10 dollars that can be invested in bitcoin. For example, if you use the DCA strategy, in my opinion, with such a small nominal value, it is not appropriate to buy using DCA. Because if for example you use the DCA strategy and divide 10 dollars into 2 or 3 accumulations, in my opinion it will be very difficult. That's why the Lump sum strategy can be used if we are in that situation. So basically you just buy 10 dollars in Bitcoin. In my opinion, this is an example of a lump sum if we don't have much money. So basically this Lump sum method can be used by anyone and it doesn't matter whether the person is rich or not. Additionally, this example could go both ways if, for example, the person with the 10 dollars I mentioned above had additional income that could be invested each month. Because of course, if the person regularly collects money in Bitcoin (10 dollars per month) then this could be an example of DCA too. So the point is, whether it's Lump sum or DCA, as long as we have cold money that can be invested in Bitcoin, then just invest it, don't think too much about it.

Your point is valid Gallar - yet your example of $10 as a lump sum is a bit unrealistic because of the very dynamic you point out in regards to the impracticality of how it might be affected by fees.

I understand some people are really poor, including regular participants in this forum/thread, yet I think that we should be trying to construct our examples a bit more realistically - more widely applicable and perhaps even more aspirational for poor people to try to figure out ways to get up to levels of investing into bitcoin at $10 per week or something like that, even though they realistically have to modify their DCA amounts down in order to make sure that they are not spending beyond their discretionary income and that they are also building and maintaining both emergency funds and other ways of making sure that they have reserve funds (backup funds) within their own disciplined (and hopefully focused) practices.

Let's say some one is really poor and struggling to get to be able to invest $10 per week into bitcoin (and/or to set aside part of that value into building their emergency fund.. so perhaps matching the size of the bitcoin investment and the emergency fund as they build those two up to each having 3 months worth of their expenses/income), so maybe over a whole year such person is struggling to invest into bitcoin, and maybe instead of having $520 invested into each, they ONLY are able to get up to $400 into each, but they continue to struggle to build and maintain both, and to be responsible in their cashflow management in order to try to increase their income and to control their expenses so that they have discretionary income available every week to try to buy at least $10 worth of bitcoin each week and to put $10 into their emergency fund each week...

If they are not able to get up to $10 for each, they continue to save in cash until they get up to such amount, so they have certain kinds of rules and practices to keep themselves focused... Maybe another thing is that it could cost them $5 for a transaction fee to move the money from one location and into their exchange (or however they are purchasing their bitcoin), so since they have to pay that $5 transaction fee each time, they wait until their total amount of cash saved is at least $100 before they move it to the exchange. and then once it is there, they decide whether to buy at once or to spread out their buys over a few times. These are not easy questions, and surely poor people can be left with larger dilemmas in regards to perhaps having to pay similar levels of fees (unless they can shop around to find some place that does not charge those fees), and so if they are not proactive, the fees will end up taking up a larger portion of the amount that they are able to get moved into bitcoin... .

So yeah, such person who is used to ongoingly buiilding up various kiinds of funds with a few dollars at a time might even feel fortunate if they come accross $20-$50 extra during any given month or any given week, and so one of the advantages of having had already created some bitcoin buying practices and put some saving systems in place, such person already knows how to deal with that extra money when it comes in. They are not necessarily going to go out and celebrate by wasting the money on some luxury, like buying a new pair of shoes, but instead they will continue to wear their old shoes, and perhaps even buy some used shoes for $5, and they will put that extra money into bitcoin.. but they still might need to strategize how they are going to do it based on fees, and perhaps even based on some of their own logistic situations.

Perhaps that person has been trying to make extra money, so they move into some lodging with some co-workers, and they are doing some kind of construction work or other kinds of manual labor, and they realize that in the coming month they are likely going to have some extra costs by paying for the shared lodging, and perhaps chipping in for food costs, yet at the same time, they don't feel comfortable keeping any extra money at that location, so once every two weeks, they have to make a trip back to their family house and to put cash into a location that they feel is secure, and so they might let that cash amount (at their family location) build up to a certain amount (such as $100 or $200) before they transfer it to another location (perhaps an exchange or perhaps a place that they consider to be their emergency funds location), and surely if a person might have some cash in 2 or 3 or even more locations, all of that cash together can still be considered as their emergency funds, while it is building up and as it is waiting to be transferred in order to be able to buy bitcoin with it.

Also the amount of cash that is sent to an exchange (such as my earlier example of $100) could also be considered to be part of the emergency funds, as long as it is still in cash and it has not yet been converted to buy bitcoin, even though the money that is still in cash is earmarked to be used for buying bitcoin, until that money is actually converted, it could be considered as part of the emergency funds..

I am not trying to poo poo any example including the example that you gave, Gallar, since surely guys are going to have differing kinds of ways that they are dealing with cash amounts, moving the cash around and even sometimes not even having very much cash that they are dealing with at any given time, or they might have troubles figuring out how to allocate their cash, and figuring out if the cash is extra or not, yet I would also suggest that the longer that any of us are investing into bitcoin, even if we are investing small amounts, we are likely going to end up building up more and more cash, and we have to exercise quite a bit of discipline to figure out how to categorize the money, and how flexible we might want to be in the ways that we are categorizing the money, including that sometimes we might need to spend some time to rethink and to reconsider how we are categorizing various kinds of pools of money that we might build up.

It might not even matter completely if some of us disagree about the ways to categorize the money, since in the end, each of us has to learn for ourselves how we are comfortable in creating our cashflow management systems, how we are accounting for various costs and the extent that we might be making mistakes or even putting some of our money at risk in the ways that we are holding it. We might even have a friend who has a bank account, and we tell the friend that once a month, we are going to take the friend out to dinner, yet we want the friend to hold and to manage a certain amount of money that we have until such time as we might be able to get our own bank account, yet we think that it could take us 6 months or longer to be able to be successful in getting our own bank account (to the extent that a bank account might be helpful to us in terms of managing and/or securing our money.. since there can even be trade-offs in regards to having bank accounts that might involve fees if we are not able to keep a high enough balance within them).

Sometimes as guys build their wealth, they might still be dealing with relatively low amounts of capital, and even after one or two years investing into bitcoin and building their cashflows, they still might ONLY be dealing with around $1k worth of capital in all of their accounts, yet they still might start to be faced with various decisions in regards to how they hold their value, and they might find that if they establish a bank account, then they might be opened to places to buy bitcoin with ONLY a 1% fee or maybe even a 0.2% fee, yet there can be a trade off of getting KYC BTC versus getting BTC that is KYC free - and even though in the very beginning, and even the first year or two of investing into bitcoin, one of the ONLY concerns might be to build up the various funds, yet as the funds get larger, the concerns might get larger, yet also the options might also change, and there might come available opportunities that were not available when the account values were much smaller.

Quote from: Justbillywitt on Today at 06:38:15 AM

Quote from: STT on January 06, 2025, 10:01:10 PM

The very best traders it will give profits, dont doubt some people got magic in their finger tips. We're talking a rarity though, assume its not you as most people should not expect to win trading.

The dedicated trader I know who is regularly able to capture trades and walk away from it win or loss without being too caught up also rises at 4am every morning, watches the Japanese markets onwards for the best clue on how global sentiment is rebounding in markets that day. Most of us lack both the clarity and dedication to really listen for the smallest clues how to proceed that day which might be completely different to the next.

With all due respect sir, your trading lecture is not appreciated here, it will be best if you take it to somewhere it will be much appreciated. Majority of us here have no idea of what you talking about and we don't even want to know. Why will I venture into something that will give me sleepless night? What happens to those that can't wake up by 4 am to catch clues? That means they are going to lose their hard earned money that day right? This is why people here are not encouraged to venture into that aspect. In long term investment you won't need all the waking up to catch any clue. Do you know how hard it is to be waking up every 4 a.m after having a busy day at work? Why put yourself through such stress? Well I know there is nothing I will say that will make you change your mind about trading, but you don't need to be discussing it here. It won't be appreciated.

I am not going to proclaim that there is absolutely no value to trading or discussing trading, yet the thrust of your point is correct that trading is not on topic here and also shitcoins are not on topic here, yet I still consider that it is possible that guys are not able to control their temptations to either trade or to shitcoin, and at least they should both limit their trading and/or shitcoining to no more than 10% of the value of their BTC holdings, and also to take those discussions to other threads, to the extent that they want to talk about them rather than denigrating them (or at least attempting to minimize their discussion of them) within a thread like this.

Sometimes, we might not be able to avoid some tangential mentioning of shitcoining and/or trading, yet there continue to be so many things that we can talk about in relation to investing and cashflow management that help us to consider how to focus on getting to BTC accumulation levels that might help us in terms of transitioning to some other strategies, and so there likely is little to no need to even mention shitcoining and/or trading prior to making sure that we understand various basics in regards to bitcoin investing, first... and surely many of us realize that even if a guy might spend a whole bitcoin cycle focusing on accumulating bitcoin, he still might not even have gotten close to getting to a high enough level of BTC accumulation in which some kind of a transition to some other kind of practices might become relevant to his own situation.. ... yet at the same time, it might still be good for guys to consider what kinds of circumstances might allow them to start to mentally transition (and thus transition some of their practices) away from being almost exclusively focused on BTC accumulation.

In recent times, I have been involved in some other forum threads in which guys are starting to consider that they are reaching their fuck you status at levels that I had previously been considering to be quite premature, yet at the same time, historically, we have seen bitcoin to be quite a powerful investment in which so far historically, bitcoin has been delivering returns that have been so much greater than the returns of traditional assets, so that it is no longer impractical to be realistically considering to both be able to reach fuck you status at a much earlier stage, but also to consider that a guy might target getting to some kind of a bitcoin stash size, and then to have a certain number of years to spend such stash size (whether that is over 10 to 30 years -depending on expected longevity/health or some other kind of time-based criteria (see my attempts to argue about these kinds of questions/concerns with bitmover).

Many times, I have considered a presumption of getting to a state of being able to perpetually spend from a guy's bitcoin stash would be a much safer approach in comparison to a time-based perspective on the reaching of BTC stash-size goals, yet I have also spent a considerable amount of time trying to back-analyze bitcoin withdrawal methods, and clearly if we are using the 200-WMA as our base valuation of our BTC holdings, and if the 200-WMA has never failed to go up at least 20% per year, then surely it seems to me that in at least nominal terms, a guy can pick any point in time and withdraw up to 20% per year (based on 200-WMA valuations and restrictions), and still his BTC holdings would have had grown (in nominal terms - and perhaps even real terms by the time we spread out the practice over a whole cycle or two) faster than the rate of his withdrawal.. so in other words, throughout bitcoin's history, guys could have had reached a certain level of bitcoin accumulation, and then chosen to withdraw at 20% per year, and if the person is withdrawing over a whole cycle or longer, the value of the bitcoin would have ended up still measuring larger than the starting out amount, in spite of continuing to withdraw 20% per year...

At the same time, I am proclaiming that historically bitcoin can be backtested to support a perpetual 20% withdrawal rate, in spite of bitcoin's proven record to sustain a perpetual 20% withdrawal rate, the history does not provide enough evidence that bitcoin's future price performance would be able to sustain such withdrawal rate, so frequently I will argue up to a 10% withdrawal rate as long as the 200-WMA stays at least 25% higher than the 200-WMA, which surely changes a lot of dynamics when it comes to how individuals will be able to manage their finances as compared with the traditional 4% withdrawal rates, that had previously been considered sustainable under non-bitcoin asset classes/portfolios..

Quote from: sotelorene on Today at 07:33:09 AM

Quote from: Justbillywitt on Today at 06:38:15 AM

[edited out]

You are absolutely right, our main reason here in this board is not to talk about trading I mean buying shitcoin and memecoin that is mostly sponsored by unserious and weak team and perhaps their objective is just to lure people in and make their own money. I remember when I use to buy and trade shitcoin, sometimes I can't stay without watching my coin because of how crazy it is, and then anytime I saw it dumping I will be so restless and sad because I knew some of them after dropping they won't pump or rise again depending on the team.

There's an extent I was going through this..., my friend who usually invest in Bitcoin told me to stop putting myself in unnecessary pressure that I should start investing in Bitcoin and I saw the potential of Bitcoin and i also realized that if I should investment in Bitcoin i wouldn't disturb myself the way i would disturb myself in buying and trading of shitcoin. Initially what makes me venture into trading and buying of shitcoin was impatient.

It is very true that so many of us get sucked into trading of BTC and/or fucking around with shitcoins because we want to speed up the pace of our getting rich, which truly is a reasonable emotion that so many people feel, yet at the same time, we still have to attempt to control such emotion because we likely end up decreasing our chances of getting rich at all when we cannot put reasonable and/or prudent systems in place - and surely it can be difficult to accept and to appreciate that bitcoin is amongst the best, if not the best of ways to allocate our capital, including that even getting into bitcoin, it is far from risk free, so we still have to figure out ways to aggressively invest into bitcoin without overdoing it.... so when it comes to 10-15 years or more down the road (or whatever might be our timeline), we surely should want to be in the game of having a stash of bitcoin rather than being a low coiner or a no coiner based on our having had put too many risks in our own BTC accumulation practices.

In other words, 10-15 years down the road, we should still want to be in the bitcoin game.. even if we might not have as many bitcoin that we could have, we likely should want to make sure that we do not engage in practices that might contribute to our overly spending or overly losing whatever bitcoin we are able to accumulate during that time.

Quote from: john_egbert on Today at 08:40:42 AM

Quote from: Rockstarguy on Today at 07:05:41 AM

[edited out]

Discipline is built through the knowledge that you've got. If you know the facts, you know why you should wait / hold / act up in the needed moment.
Simple truths, and indeed, - any person is free to choose his own way to invest in BTC.

For sure, every person is free to choose his own bitcoin investment (accumulation) ways, and surely some ways are better than others, and guys have to figure out for themselves, and be responsible for themselves, even if they end up screwing things up because they failed to figure out the "better" BTC accumulation practices.

Quote from: EarnOnVictor on Today at 10:33:28 AM

Quote from: JayJuanGee on January 04, 2025, 03:18:04 AM

Essentially, what you seem to be suggesting is that what EarnOnVictor is not being very representative of what normal people would do in similar circumstances, and so most likely we have to take what EarnOnVictor is saying that he did with a considerably decent sized grain of salt, including that he has been frequently proclaiming to be engaging in trading kinds of strategies rather than investing strategies, and he is also proclaiming that he bought BIG at the bottom of our BTC price timeline, and perhaps is going to imply that at some point he is going to sell BIG at (or near) the top, yet he is not even really announcing as he goes and he poo poos the idea of DCAing, including acting like normal guys can figure out in advance what the BTC price is going to do, and to attempt to provide himself as evidence of how guys can be smarter than the market (or see BTC price moves in advance).
-snip-

Reading your reply, I can deduce you fully understand me to a high extent but no one is trying to "poo poos" on DCA. The DCA investment approach is a great one and has been tested and trusted for decades, it also works a great deal with Bitcoin, so it will be unfair for anyone to "poo poos" on it...lol.

Of course, it can be quite difficult to know anyone's true intentions in posting, and you could be the most benevolent and gracious person in the world, yet to some extent it seems fair to try to address the contents of the posts of forum members, including that sometimes other forum members might be drawn into their substance in ways that the forum member might not have had intended.

I will concede that sometimes (or maybe even frequently), I will purposefully exaggerate certain kinds of points based on my desire to send some kind of a message, and so in those kinds of situations I am purposefully spinning in one direction, since it seems that if I might concede any ground, then my concession might end up being misunderstood.. so frequently, I will emphasize "just say no" to trading and to shitcoining, even though surely guys might be able to include up to 10% in their practices into shitcoining and/or trading without damaging themselves, their BTC holdings and/or their approach to bitcoin, yet at the same time, many of us recognize and appreciate that it can be quite difficult for normies to limit themselves to 10% of their bitcoin holdings into trading and/or shitcoining, or to focus on bitcoin first if they are also juxtaposing trading and/or shitcoining into their approach to bitcoin, so in that sense, it may well be way safer for someone like me to continue to preach about "just say no" to shitcoining and/or trading until bitcoin holdings (and practices) reach a certain maturity level, and also it could well end up being the case that if a guy spends 2-4 years or more focusing on bitcoin and building his bitcoin holdings, he may well come to realize that there is no need at all to get into either shitcoining and/or trading, and a person can live a completely happy and even self-fulfilled life without fucking around with either of those.

Sure, in the end, guys can do whatever they like, and they actually should do whatever they like, yet at the same time, I am going to continue to spout out about what I consider to be better practices, and surely guys are free agents who are empowered to come to their own conclusions and they are even more empowered if they really spend some time assessing their own 9-ish individual factors.

Quote from: EarnOnVictor on Today at 10:33:28 AM

And for clarity, I DCA as well, the only difference is that I don't let one investment strategy tie my hands, unlike many others. If we are sincere to ourselves, the DCA approach is not the only working investment strategy, by virtue, diversifying my strategy is still on course.

I expect that you have some pretty decent assessments of your own limitations, and you also likely figure out reasonable apportionments in order to employ some of your trading moves, and I suppose you already realize that my ongoing criticisms of your proclamations about your approach deal with the frequent impressions that I get that you are suggesting that your approach is much more transferrable and/or replicable than what I believe it to be, and I believe that I am not patronizing the abilities of people to learn and to outsmart the market, yet I am suggesting that it tends to be real easy (and perhaps even common) for guys to try to employ smarter than everyone else techniques that end up playing out in way worse ways than if they had just taken a more dumb approach to the market and just focused on other things, such as increasing their discretionary income so that they can buy more bitcoin in more aggressive ways rather than trying to trade it or to waste time studying stupid-ass shitcoin scams (under some kind of belief that they are legit or quasi-legit or that they can get in and out of such shitcoins prior to the dumber people).

Quote from: sotelorene on Today at 06:42:33 PM

Quote from: Cryptoprincess101 on Today at 05:35:39 PM

Quote from: Frankolala on Today at 05:00:58 PM

Keeping funds at hand to buy when the price of bitcoin dips is not lump sum but buying at the dip. Don't get it twisted, lump sum is when you have your bonus and use the money to buy bitcoin right aware regardless of the price of bitcoin. Like what you said there's nothing bad in splitting the funds in two or three parts, but if you don't buy right away with one part, you haven't lump sum.

Actually, some folks misunderstood buying at a DIP and lump summing. Buying at a DIP means keeping a discretionary income while waiting for the price of bitcoin to fall before buying but lump summing is simply what we call an ''all in''. An amount you have kept to invest at once probably without investing further amount again but only leave your investment to grow in the long term. @Frankolala, you sound a bit contradictory because for someone who wants to lump sum, there is no need of splitting funds again except for someone who want to start investing while keeping some amount to buy when a DIP occurs of which it can't be regarded as lump summing. Though an investor can still decide to split their discretionary income into three parts for DCA, lump summing and buying at a DIP.

You are actually right though they have a similarity which is buying and then one of the difference between these two strategy or method of accumulating Bitcoin is that, an investor can actually lump sum whether dip or not but an investor who uses the buy Dip method can only invest or buy when there is downtrend in the market. However, it will be more advantageous for an investor to buy during the Dip because they are going to accumulate more figure of Bitcoin compared to when there's no Dip. And again lump summing doesn't mean an investor won't continue his investment again off course they will that is if after lump summing they still have the capacity as a matter of fact I have seen someone who has lump sum and still continue with the DCA method which is very strategic and I believe with little or no time his portfolio will be great and also I think that is the fastest way or approach to build our..., only if one have the capacity.

From my perspective, you are describing the various strategies in confusing ways, even though you don't seem to be saying anything that is not correct.

Surely a person who has lump sums available will have more options than a person who has limited amounts of discretionary funds that come available, perhaps on a monthly basis through work income or some other forms of income that might come available through each month.

Truly if a person had been investing in bitcoin for a year or so and perhaps his income was around $25k per year, and he had been buying right around $100 per week in bitcoin, he might have some instances through the year in which he has extra money come in (or perhaps some relief from some of his expenses that causes him to have extra money come available to him at various times during the year). So if the guy suddenly has $2k come available, he might consider to invest it right away, or he might consider to spread it out over several weeks or he might choose to structure some buy orders that would allow him to buy on dips, if dips take place. He could apply the amount to ONLY one of the methods, or he could combine methods, so if he buys $1k right away, then he might feel more liberated to set up the other $1k for buying on dips and/or DCA spreading it over several weeks or even spreading it over several months. He could also purposefully choose allocate some portion of that available lump sum amount to his emergency fund and/or his reserve funds.

Surely a guy who comes across a lump sum amount may end up having more options and likely will feel way more empowered by having had come across such lump sum as compared with how he might have felt prior to coming across such lump sum. The fact the the guy might have already had a year or so of experience in building his bitcoin investing systems and thinking about bitcoin may well also help him in terms of thinking about how to most appropriately channel that lump sum amount as compared with if he had not been involved in bitcoin for the previous year, yet that same guy still may well have to consider that no matter how he chooses to deploy that lump sum there are going to be trade offs in regards to his decision, and there likely is no one best way of doing it, so no matter how he chooses, he is making trade-offs that he is attempting to best tailor to his own finances and psychology and even potentially including considering an accounting of all of his 9 individual factors.

Sometimes guys will proclaim that there is some "best" way of allocating a lump sum amount and they seem to even overly weight their consideration of bitcoin's price as compared to other places that they could put the money, yet the fact of the matter continues to be that considerations of bitcoin's price is still ONLY one of the 9 factors, and it seems to even be more of an unknown rather than giving weight to the other 9 factors that may well be more knowable than the BTC price speculation factor. Guys might also experience regret 3-6 months after they had decided how to deploy their earlier received lump sum based on how the BTC price ended up going as compared with their prior speculation regarding where the BTC price would end up going, and surely I am not even proclaiming that I know the solution to such regrets, except perhaps our attempts to ongoingly tailor our approach to bitcoin in light of our learnings, and perhaps NOT to be making any radical changes to our approach to bitcoin, unless the evidence is fairly clear that we need to do so, yet at the same time, I still have difficulties imagining very many cases in which bitcoin newbies should be prioritizing away from ongoing BTC accumulation, especially during their first 4 years into bitcoin, unless they had happened to have had been able to considerably front-load their investment into bitcoin during their first 4-years, which not too many guys are really in a financial and/or psychological place to have had been able to meaningfully frontload their bitcoin investment within their first whole cycle investing into it.