Quote from: franky1 on Today at 02:20:36 AM

retired options (meaning remaining retired) is not to go back to work, as obviously you are not retired if you are working

Obviously, you lack nuance in your proclamations.

Quote from: franky1 on Today at 02:20:36 AM

retired options are to: stay home, or do chores, hobbies, or go travelling, socialising and other life stuff.. not involving work*

*work: obligated labour in exchange for income

Maybe I can give some example? not that it is going to change the mind of a dogmatist like you, Franky1, but here goes.

I am in the process of minding my own business, and perhaps consuming a few hookers, lambos and blow, and go out on a day trip (such as a picnic and a hike into the hills and then a swim at the beach), and so on the way back to one of my yachts, I decide to stop by the steak and lobster place to grab a bite and maybe warm up the atmosphere for a later midnight snack, and while I am in the steak house, I bump into one of my old friends from college (or high school), and I decide to invite him to have some steak and lobster and buy him a drink, since it has been a year or more since we had seen each other. In the process of our conversation, I find out that in the next couple of days he is going to be moving, and I also find out that he had been buying bitcoin, yet he was still confused about how to store his bitcoin, and he describes some of his BTC buying practices to me. Maybe I spend more than an hour talking with the guy as we are chowing down on our meal and enjoying our drinks, and after such conversation, I decide that I am going to want to spend some more time with the guy, so I offer to help him move, and I suggest to him that we should also get together within the month and go over various aspects of bitcoin, so I consider that such future meetings will be good for both of us.

A month later, it ends up being that I had spent a couple of days helping the guy move, and I even ended up helping him to paint one of his bedrooms, and I ended up calling one of my construction buddies so that the construction buddy could change two of his doors, add a shower door to one of his bathtubs and add a closet to one of his bedrooms. I also ended up meeting with him twice to go over various bitcoin related matters, which also involved my giving him assignments on the first meeting so that we would be able to go into more depth in our second meeting.

At the end of the month, after our 4th or 5th meeting, I suggested that we should stay in touch more, and my friend told me that he was really happy with how much he had benefitted from our meetings, and he said that he was not sure exactly how to pay me back, and I told him that I did not really care either way if he paid me back or not. He told me that he would think about how he was going to pay me back, and he would get back with me about that, and I repeated that it does not really matter to me, either way.

About two weeks later, the guy contacted me, and he said that he wanted to meet for lunch sometime, and so we arranged a lunch, and at the lunch he gave me $2k in cash, $5k in bitcoin (after I showed him a bitcoin receiving address) and 7-day cruise tickets for two persons (with open dates to be used within a year to a destination that we had previously discussed to be of an interesting potential for me) that were valued around $5k. I told him that he did not need to buy me anything, and he said that he really valued my help in those matters, and he thinks that he had gotten more value from our exchange rather than the value that I had gotten, and so he wanted to compensate me for the value that he perceived himself to have had been getting.

He told me about our mutual friend who also could use similar kind of help, and he suggested that in the coming months that we meet up with our mutual friend to help him in similar kinds of ways, which implied that the compensation would be similar. I told him that I would get back with him about my thoughts on the matter of the mutual friend, about whether I wanted to do it, and if so how it might fit into my schedule. He said o.k., and about two weeks later, I got back with him and proposed a schedule in which I largely accepted our planned future project, and with a kind of implication that either he or our friend would probably end up insisting on paying me some kind of a similar amount.

Quote from: franky1 on Today at 02:20:36 AM

you keep asserting that going back to work or continuing to work is somehow retiring/being retired, when you keep insanely determining that people can be in work whilst in FIRE status

Sure. That is more or less correct in regards to what I am asserting.

Quote from: franky1 on Today at 02:20:36 AM

the FI is important if you want full financial independence(FI) to make ANY choice INCLUDING returning to or continuing work.. but adding the RE means you chose to retire and do life stuff instead, not work stuff

It seems quite likely that you go wrong in your trying to determine what is "work" versus "life" stuff, and surely I could concede that there could be some people who deceive themselves in regards to their own self-descriptions in regards to their level of financial independence and how it might apply to their abilities to say fuck you regarding any work relation that they might enter, which implies that sometimes the voluntariness of the involvement of any supposed financially independent person in any such work that he agrees to perform could be more compromised than such persons are willing to admit.

Perhaps you and I differ in how much weight or how much we want to get into details in regards to figuring out the extent to which the activities of purportedly financially independent persons are voluntary or not, and it seems that I hardly give too many shits about those kinds of details, and you want to jump in and proclaim those kinds of details as if they are deal breakers and/or that they eliminate certain persons from self-proclaiming as being in fuck you status or FIRE status or filthy rich status or whatever merely because they are not jumping through appropriate Frank1 definitional hoops.

Quote from: franky1 on Today at 02:20:36 AM

i dont care if you personally want to work after you reach FI (your F U status) but dont describe yourself as retired whilst still affirming that you are working, it makes no sense

You also make little sense, so there is that angle, too. Tongue

though from time to time, to the extent that you are not bordering on annoying, you do provide some humor in your ongoing insistences upon your own definitional and quasi-psychotic frameworks.

Quote from: franky1 on Today at 02:20:36 AM

as for your last paragraph, you could have just said you dont want to be part of(what you call) a 'dumb acronym' of FIRE. and instead you just want to reach the FI status and continue to have the philosophy to work if you want to
there is no problem and i have no problem with you just wanting to be FI

I am glad that I received your permission regarding the conditions upon I might be allowed to include the RE portion into my own self-descriptions.

At the same time, I am not sure if my behaviors are going to change very much, since sometimes there can be questions in regards to which projects to take on or to get into, and surely some projects could involve some receiving money back rather than just paying into them, and some projects might also require additional work from me in order to do them, or they might involve some contracting of labor of others that may or may not involve some money coming back to me based on the efforts of those other people I had contracted to help me with such projects... which even the 30 unit apartment that I had described earlier has an income generating component to it, even if my goals might not have had been to make money from it, yet I am not going to complain if aspects of the project pay for itself, too..

Another example could be that I really like going to a bar/restaurant that is in my neighborhood, and one day I go to the bar/restaurant and the owner tells me about some of his personal issues that contribute towards his inabilities to continue to operate the bar/restaurant. He describes to me that in the past few years, his management of the bar/restaurant has been in the ballpark of 4-10 hours per week and he also shares the bar/restaurant finances with me, which show it to be ongoingly profitable and largely self sustaining.. not quite passive income, but pretty close to it in terms of how much work (implying the 4-10 hours per week) might be required. He asserts that due to his own personal circumstances, he is going to have to sell the bar/restaurant which truly would run a likely risk that the bar/restaurant would end up changing into something else.. and so within that discussion, I decide that I am going buy the bar. Surely it is already contemplated that I may well be adding 4-10 hours of work to my weekly life, yet I also may well already have systems in place in which I am able to delegate that 4-10 hours of work and continue to get the benefits of the restaurant to stay within similar practices as it had been, even though I would have the burden of transitioning into being an owner of that bar/restaurant rather than merely a customer of it..

Quote from: franky1 on Today at 02:20:36 AM

but the philosophy of FIRE is about the retiring part, as thats what the RE intended meaning is....

Could be that you are correct, but it also could be that we disagree in regards to how much weight to ascribe to the RE portion of such self-classification and/or how we choose to talk about it.. Does that mean that we are largely engaging in a semantical, rather than substantive, argument? Could be? Could be?

Quote from: franky1 on Today at 02:20:36 AM

any way
your weird redefinitions of common sense terms has just dramatised this topic more then it needs to

Speak for yourself. Tongue

Quote from: franky1 on Today at 02:20:36 AM

getting back to the topic
working a normal job thats not sufficiently paid wont get you any significant chance to become FI or enter FIRE status

It depends on the quantity of discretionary income and it also may well depend upon how such discretionary income is invested. Investing into bitcoin has proven to be a really great place to put value and to end up receiving disproportionate payouts.

Both you and I (not trying to presume too much about your particulars) are likely great examples of abilities to invest potentially modest amounts into bitcoin and to potentially benefit in disproportionately grand ways.

Let's just go by our proclaimed times of entering into bitcoin rather than the details of our own particular circumstances, and in accordance with your forum registration date, sure you likely could have had gotten into bitcoin in 2012, yet let's just go with a worser-case scenario date, such as using my own timeframe of entering into bitcoin, and let's say that a normal person got into bitcoin right around the same time as me, in late 2013 (and using December 1 as our start date), and if such person modestly invested right around $100 per week into bitcoin from December 1, 2013 until present, such person would have had invested right around $58k into bitcoin over such time, and up until now, such person would have had accumulated right in the ballpark of 46.33 BTC, and surely there are a lot of persons who could have had participated in a fairly normal job and amassed $100 per week for the accumulation of bitcoin over the past 11-ish years, no? You surely cannot be saying that having 46.33 BTC based on a $58k investment over the past 11 years had not amounted to an a sufficient about of wealth building in order to have had gotten to FIRE status?

Personally, I am not even proclaiming any need to rely upon current BTC spot prices in order to make my own proclamation that there are a decent number of normal people who could likely proclaim and enter into FIRE status based on a current accumulation of a BTC stash of 46.33 BTC, which has a 200-WMA valuation that is close to $2million, and a spot price valuation that is more than double that. Whether they exercise the RE portion or not within Franky1 requisitions seems to be optional from my own perspective, and we can agree to disagree about the RE portion, yet I think that even you would have a hard time arguing that a normal person would not have had been able to accumulate enough wealth in the past 11-ish years, if he had chosen to focus on accumulating bitcoin during that time. Sure, past results do not guarantee future results, yet if we are trying to make proclamations about where a person today might be, we likely have to consider past results in terms of assessing how they got to where they are at rather than projecting what any similarly situated normal person may or may not be able to do in terms of their choice to invest into bitcoin (or something else) in the upcoming 11 years-ish.

Quote from: franky1 on Today at 02:20:36 AM

however investments that self accrue and grow at a better than inflation rate, can offer you better chances to reach FI or decide to enter FIRE status
bitcoin definitely helps, and proven has helped me and others already, and can help alot more yet to reach FI

At least, for the moment, until you may well come in and shift the goal posts, we seem to agree on these last couple of assertions of yours.

Quote from: tabas on Today at 11:53:02 AM

Quote from: JayJuanGee on January 06, 2025, 09:14:49 AM

[edited out]

All that you've said make sense, really. It's true that many of the folks that did investments in some other things like in other assets that were doing well in the past but it didn't in the future. While some are putting money with their ROTH IRA and that's what they're leaning towards in the future for their retirement. Each of us for sure went through fire and tested by time and we're fortunate that we're into Bitcoin and this is no doubt the best asset, store of value by time if we'd look at the gains and growth of it. I agree that even with so little in Bitcoin holdings, anyone needs to take care of it until retirement or if that's the choice of anyone here like you and me not to spend all that we've got. Spend some but save more. This is totally what we can put as a candidate for a life changing investment into this era. I think we can say that we're also lucky that we're part of this generation and Bitcoin has came at the right time for most of us. It is imperative when someone who's got some BTC at the early days need to keep it at least 1 or even 0.1 BTC and make it as a goal whether it's for FIRE or some future goals, it just suits everyone's dreams and goals.

Sure, I cannot know your own historical BTC accumulation particulars, except maybe to the extent that you might want to disclose some of them, and at the same time, I will assert that it is not necessary to get too much into the particulars of any of us in order to attempt to describe a story or to make some points in regards to what role BTC accumulation might have had played in where we are at, how we got here and/or where we might be going from here.

Even your own forum registration date of early 2016 could have provided time for your to have had accumulated a decently good size BTC stash as compared with your own financial/psychological particulars, yet surely there are likely a lot of us who may or not have been in a very good situation to have had been able to accumulate as many bitcoin as we could have had accumulated or what we should have accumulated, so we have to figure out how we are going to go forward based on your own individual particulars as they are right now rather than getting too caught up upon any past mistakes that we might have had made in regards to our level of BTC accumulation aggressiveness.

It seems to me that anyone currently knowing about bitcoin and willing to take action to start to accumulate BTC as aggressively as they are able to do (without overdoing it) is in a way better position than persons who either don't know about bitcoin or they are not in a position in which they are ready, willing and able to act to accumulate bitcoin as aggressively as they are able to do.

I do understand that there may well be people who are not able to invest into bitcoin because they are busy investing into themselves and/or investing into building job skills so that they can improve their future earnings, yet it still seems to me that anyone who knows about bitcoin is still going to be in a better position to figure out ways to invest time, energy and/or value into bitcoin, even if they might have some reasonably important and valuable competing interests.

Quote from: tabas on Today at 11:53:02 AM

Quote from: JayJuanGee on January 06, 2025, 09:14:49 AM

Quote from: tabas on January 05, 2025, 11:22:41 PM

I am a testament to this and will continue to do so in keeping a stack of Bitcoin. I've proved it to myself that there's the biggest part in my life that BTC did it all and I reckon this advise and hopefully others will be wise on doing their investments, I'm not saying that I am wise but sure JJG is. Wink

Of course, bitcoin is not guaranteed to continue to outperform traditional assets, so we have to figure how much of a balance we want to keep in each, even when we are spending from them, so perhaps if we start to get to the cashing out stage, we might end up drawing from each in some kind of proportioned level that helps us to feel comfortable in regards to how much value we are keeping in each or perhaps if we might choose to let the bitcoin portion grow more, even though the formula is not 100% true.

Recently I had been trying to talk a friend into delaying purchasing a house, since there was a trade off between putting the value into the house and keeping value in bitcoin, and such person did not listen to me, and surely it is not my choice to make.

Many of us likely recall that a median house in 2015 may well have had cost us close to 1,000 bitcoin ($250k), and surely today, even if the median price of house might have more than doubled in the past 10 years, right now a median house of $500k to $1million, the contrast is strong, since such $500k to $1million house will cost us in the ballpark of 6 to 11 BTC, which truly is a big difference, and we don't even have to go that far back to make comparisons, since even in 2019, we might say that a $500k house may well have had cost us around 50 BTC, and so such trend is not necessarily guaranteed, yet we can figure out where we might want to put our value, and sure if we are intent on getting a house we can choose whether to get it now, or if we might want to wait a few years (if we might be able to, and at the same time, we are the one who has to live with the decision, whether we can reasonably recognize what might be for our own financial and/or psychological good or not).. We might not realize the ramifications of our choices until 3-5 years down the road when it may well no longer be an option for us to attempt to revisit our earlier decision..

I agree, if someone can delay the purchase of the house for at least one more cycle. He/she will have to sell fewer bitcoins while keeping the rest of it. But that's it, if it's in immediate action and there's a need to purchase that, that's fine, as long as the person doing that is happy. And like what people used to say, "take profits when happy". But still, don't forget to keep and save some for future references as Bitcoin is here to stay.

There are quite a few people who have come to realize that they overvalued real estate (such as buying their own residence) and they undervalued bitcoin in terms of how much bitcoin would continue to appreciate relative to property values. There are still a lot of people mistakingly making those kinds of assessments.